Split Thread Judy Wood and dustification

I here assert that it does not prove the claim you are attributing to it and I further assert GZ was flat as shown in the photos I have posted in this thread.

#1. I am a graduate of the Hunter College CUNY Geography Department. Their GIS lab and professors are outstanding. They know their ****.

#2. I worked with GIS people who assisted OEM and Hunter College with their mapping of GZ.

#3. I used to be a surveyor with the DDC, and I worked with the DDC surveyors who mapped that place. They all now have elevated levels of mercury in ther blood.

#4. I myself was at GZ. I saw the pile. Some parts were at least 40-50 feet high.

If you honestly believe (I question this) that the GZ pile was flat, and never was higher then just a few feet above grade, than you have no idea what you are talking about...and are not worthy of debating with.
 
Here we see how the flattened debris was funneled down to the basement levels and clandestinely loaded into specially converted PATH trains for transport to the Chinese scrapyards. Explain this one away, debunkers!


picture.php
 
what percent of the steel and concrete do you believe was turned to dust?

Never mind that no truther, even the vaunted researcher Judy Wood, has managed to demonstrate a device that can 'dustify' anything.

All I need is a demonstration of a beam that can 'dustify' (not burn, not melt) a small sample of steel wool. Turn it to dust for me. Come on how hard can it be?

It cannot melt or oxydize(burn) the steel wool because we did not witness such a thing occuring to the WTC.

Also still waiting for bill to show me evidence that the communication tower on top of WTC 1 was constructed of aluminum.
 
LOL - from that thread. Prophetic words from 12 June, 2008.

I also submit that, since the only lively conversation around (apart from Unsecured Coins punking Alex Jones) involves a space beamer, this is further evidence that the Truth Movement is stone dead.
 
Your first post in reply is a dirty trick, noteworthy for its falsity and its duplicity.

Claims of refutation are not the same as refutation. Mackey has not refuted a damn thing because he does not address either what Wood has claimed or shown why and how the Twin Towers were destroyed. It appears Mackey thinks kerosene did it.

And, note the second dirty trick you used: You accused me of using "old posts" even as YOU made mention of two old threads and then, not only that, but falsely summarized what the old threads contained.

That is rich.:p

:lolsign:

That's all you got to offer? Seriously? My first post is showing your past history of failure. And I'll bet you haven't modified arguments since then; you truthers tend to be too lazy to do so.

"Claims of refuation", BTW, is an inaccurate way to state it. I linked you to proof that we refuted you, not mere claims. You were refuted. Forcefully.

And yes, I did indeed bring up old posts because there's no need to compose new works to refute the same old stuff. What does that say about your material, that I feel confident enough that simply showing old posts are sufficient to inform readers just how wrong you can get?

And simply claiming something doesn't make it true: I did not falsely summarize what those old threads contained. All anyone has to do is go read them to see your arguments get destroyed. You, after all, were the person who tried to argue that Ground Zero was flat, even after being showed indisputable evidence that it was not. Remember the LIDAR data? The imagry? Probably not, since you didn't seem to pay attention to them the first time we showed them to you.

And yes, Ryan did indeed refute the whole concept of beam weaponry use. He did not have to worry about the details that Judy Wood may have concentrated on because he demonstrated it wrong on the conceptual level. You don't have to worry about the idiotic little details when he demonstrates that the idea, regardless of specifics, is impossible. And that's what he did. If you want to prove him wrong, then do it. Here's what he wrong; feel free to try to disprove it:

A mathematician will be quick to point out that any arbitrary surface can be described by a collection of "circles" ("balls," we used to call them) of arbitrary diameter. Unless you can find a single size that fits perfectly, which you can't, you've proven nothing that geometrists haven't known for centuries.

Anyway -- seems we're still thinking about those pesky beam weapons, despite having shown you much less sinister mechanisms that provide the same "round holes," and are in fact completely consistent with the expected building performance. We've also shown you how your Star Wars weapon actually doesn't fit the "evidence" that you (and only you) see.

Still, elsewhere, you've insisted that we treat this as a valid hypothesis. It must be tested, you say.

The test is simple: Do beam weapons of this magnitude exist? No.

Still doubting, eh?

In that case, class, pull up a chair. Today we're going to design our own WTC Killing Beam Weapon of Doom to see just what one would look like. While the beam emitter itself could plausibly be a "black" project, something the Governmint doesn't want us to see, it would be dependent on much more mundane technologies -- launch vehicles, power systems, that kind of thing -- and still restrained by the laws of physics. While we may not know anything about the weapon itself, we can figure out the rest.

So suppose an unsmiling man in a grey suit delivers a magical beam weapon to us, and insists we make it functional. All we know are its requirements. Some of these we can divine from what we saw on Sept. 11th.

1. Orbit

The beam weapon must fire from almost directly above its target, and must do so unseen. If it fired at an angle, the beam -- allegedly capable of destroying the WTC towers -- would have cut through at an angle, leaving a quite interesting damage path, one that was not seen on TV. Likewise, TV cameras did not capture any blimps or dirigibles or large aircraft hovering high above the Towers. Thus, we assume the beam system was orbital.

There are basically two choices for an orbital system: LEO (Low Earth Orbit) and GEO (Geosynchronous) or similar orbits. Both of these orbits have problems.

Recall that not one tower was destroyed, but two. The South Tower fell at 9:59 AM, and the North Tower fell at 10:28. In LEO, the orbital period is a function of altitude, and the spacecraft orbits faster as it gets lower. However, the minimum usable orbit is about 90 minutes long. If the two different firings suggested happened on successive orbits, i.e. 29 minutes apart, the spacecraft altitude would have been below sea level. This is impossible.

If the two firings occurred on the same orbit, we now require a much, much higher orbit. A true GEO orbit won't work either, since you only remain geostationary above the equator, otherwise the spacecraft will appear to oscillate north and south while retaining the same longitude. We need a firing angle that is just about straight down and stays that way for 30 minutes, or 1/48th of an orbit. A GEO track would move by a minimum of 7.5% of peak latitude, or over 1.6o of latitude, which may be unacceptable. So we would need to be much, much higher than GEO.

The high-orbit situation is also impractical for two military reasons. First, high orbits require much larger rockets. Second, it severely limits your options, since it could take hours, days, or even forever to orient this beam on a particular target.

The only practical solution, then, is to have two beam weapon satellites. We will assume these are orbiting in the cheapest orbit possible, i.e. LEO.

2. Beam Energy

The beam must be capable of delivering a WTC-finishing blow in roughly 10 seconds. How much energy are we talking about?

To make this exercise remotely plausible, we will consider a firing energy much lower than the tower destruction itself. For sake of argument, suppose the beam delivers 6.0 x 109 Joules of energy -- a number chosen because it is twice that of the aircraft impact kinetic energy, as calculated in Greening (pg. 10). This is an arbitrary choice but clearly a beam energy higher than the impacts is needed, since the impacts alone finished off neither structure.

We further assume that the beam weapon is 50% efficient, an "ideal" figure (cutting-edge lasers built for efficiency are typically around 16% efficient). This means a total of 1.2 x 1010 Joules of energy must be supplied by the spacecraft, over a period of 10 seconds, or 1.2 x 109 Watts of power. That is the design requirement of our black-box beam weapon.

It should be pointed out that we have neglected many efficiency-robbing problems to arrive at this figure -- attenuation by the atmosphere, for instance, and beam absorption or reflection by the target are both major concerns. In practice I would not be surprised to see an effective beam efficiency as low as 5% under ideal conditions.

3. Energy Storage

As this power figure is roughly equivalent to the output of a commercial nuclear power plant, it is clear that our WKBWD satellite cannot provide this continuously, but must store the energy. This poses a big problem.

The most obvious solution is battery power. The highest energy density rechargeable batteries currently envisioned (and these have not been qualified for space) can supply about 1 MJ / kg of battery mass. To supply the 1.2 x 1010 Joules we require, this means 12,000 kg of battery.

But this figure cannot be trusted. Recall that we require a full discharge in only ten seconds. Batteries don't like this. They heat up, which increases their internal resistance and robs power, and chemical pathways become blocked, making much of its storage unavailable. Given this requirement, our battery size would need to be much larger -- Lithium ion batteries over 20 second peak load are limited to a mere 1500 W/kg. Since our beam requires 1.2 x 109 Watts, we would actually need 8,000 tons of battery.

So batteries are out. What about capacitors? If we assume a spacecraft bus voltage of 1000 Volts (which is unacceptably high for space applications, as arcing would probably destroy our satellite), to reach our total energy requirement, E = 0.5 C V2, thus capacitance C = 24,000 Farads. This can be done with, say, ten tons of capacitors, however the leakage will be much higher -- rather than charging batteries over periods of weeks, the capacitors will require a much more rapid charge cycle, and any weight saved in the capacitors themselves will be lost to solar arrays and thermal management.

The very last possibility is the extreme explosive compression flux generator, basically a one-shot motor that uses explosives to push a magnet and a coil. This is similarly "black" and exciting to Conspiracy Theorists, but not practical here either. While this little gadget can crank out a reported 1012 Watts, it only does so for a few microseconds. To sustain our ten-second beam, we would need about a million small copies of this, and they would have to somehow be shielded from each other. Alternatively, if we convinced the beam weapon designers to change their beam, so that it fired one extremely rapid pulse, we would only need a few thousand of these.

In either case, the beam weapon would have to handle several million Amps of current, and somehow convert this into a useful, collimated beam. If anybody has any ideas how to do this, let me know. The best I can think of is a microwave waveguide -- but the biggest of these is Arecibo, it's four orders of magnitude weaker than we'd need, and it would clearly be seen orbiting the Earth!

We also have a another stealth problem. If we generate a 1.2 x 1010 Joule energy pulse, that means we're setting off much more than 1.2 x 1010 Joules worth of explosives, or 3 tons TNT equivalent, in orbit. This can be done, provided we don't mind creating a flash in the upper atmosphere that would be clearly visible to the naked eye in full daylight, and provided we don't mind alerting the early warning systems of every nuclear-armed government in the process.

4. Launch Considerations

Each of our proposed solutions above requires a satellite that masses over 10 tons for energy storage or generation above. Since the thermal control, solar generation, attitude control, and payload are also assumed to be significant, we may assume the power storage is reasonably close to a standard satellite MEL (Mass Equipment List) breakdown, and is thus around 10-25% of the total satellite mass. We thus estimate our spacecraft minimum mass is around 40 tons.

This exceeds the launch capability of any current launch vehicle -- almost double that of the Shuttle -- although Saturn V could do it.

Needless to say, this also isn't a good consideration for stealth.

Any other launch would require on-orbit assembly, and a rather complicated one at that. The extremely high-power storage and supply would have to be bridged. Pointing on the beam weapon would be critical, requiring utmost precision.

Lastly, this would mean that our astronauts are also members of the conspiracy.

5. Conclusion

Orbital beam weapons, even if the beam technology itself was sound, are not practical as tools of overt domination or covert destruction of land-based targets. There is simply no way to generate the power required to destroy hardened structures, let alone destroy them so thoroughly as to remove evidence of the beam weapon's use. In legitimate studies, beam weapons have only been considered in cases where a much lower power (1 MW or less) can achieve a useful result, such as damaging fragile sensors or puncturing thin-walled critical structures, e.g. the booster of an ICBM.

The fundamental roadblock is the ability to put power on the ground. As we saw above, the only credible approach is to use expendables, viz. explosives. In this case, the orbiting beam weapon offers no advantages over simply putting those same explosives on target. The difficulty and cost associated with the orbiting platform, coupled with the nonexistence of high performance beam emitters to begin with, makes this a complete non-starter.

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Thank you all for your attention. There's a sign-up sheet for my two-week Mad Scientist Camp circulating somewhere near the back.

Huff and puff all you want, but unless you have something new, there's no need to put much effort into rebutting your posts. It's all been said before; your problem is that you refuse to acknowledge it.
 
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But, there was a thread that I seem to recall that dealt with the issue of DEBRIS HEIGHT at Ground Zero. As I recall it, that thread caused, shall we say, quite a stir around here. For my part, suffice it to say, the evidence in support of the claim ground zero was flattened, thus confirming, among other things, that the steel had been pulverized and turned to dust, was rather overwhelming.

Overwhelmingly against your claim.
This was mentioned in passing by WildCat much earlier in the thread, but I don't think anyone paid enough attention to it.

LIDAR mapping was used at Ground Zero after 9/11 to create (and then continuously update) extremely precise and accurate maps of, among other things, the rubble pile heights.

A National Geographic column explains:

Additional LIDAR views showed color-coded heights of the damaged structures and the constantly shifting rubble piles. This information helped officials know how tall debris-removal cranes needed to be.

(On might ask, why would officials need this information if the debris were no more than a story high? Any crane can reach a height of one story. Fortunately, there's no need to engage in such speculative, albeit convincing, questioning. The maps themselves exist and can be examined.)

A CUNY publication explains the project in more detail, including its background in pre-9/11 digital mapping work, and how the new technologies it had developed were put to use in rescue and restoration efforts. I recommend this fascinating article for anyone who hasn't read it yet.

Images generated from some of the maps themselves are now part of the collection of the Library of Congress. Posted here: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/911/911-maps.html. Of particular value is the post-September-11th flythrough visualization video (link is about halfway down the page, on the right side). This is based on the same LIDAR data used to plan rescue operations, locate and repair damaged utility links, and plan debris removal. Note that in some areas the rubble is relatively flat, and in others it's piled many stories high.

CARSI's Web site, including current personnel and contact information, and links to other publications and media reports, is here: http://www.geo.hunter.cuny.edu/~carsi/.

Directly from that site, the height of the rubble piles on 9/19/01: http://www.geo.hunter.cuny.edu/~carsi/INDEX/CURRENTAFFAIRS/exhibit/lidar_sep.htm. It shows that the top of the rubble piles (NOT counting still-standing structures) relative to the surrounding street level reaches the 75-100 foot elevation range in both tower footprints. Note also the regions of negative elevation, especially in the plaza area where the pre-9/11 elevation was about 30 feet higher than the surrounding street level -- which is certainly not possible without damage to the underground structures in those areas.

More images and renderings here: http://www.geo.hunter.cuny.edu/~carsi/

This is unambiguous and decisive evidence of large debris piles.

No claims of lack of large debris piles require any rational consideration whatsoever unless they address this evidence.

Respectfully,
Myriad
LIDAR data unambiguously shows debris pile height in the 75 to 150 foot range:
http://www.geo.hunter.cuny.edu/~carsi/INDEX/CURRENTAFFAIRS/exhibit/lidar_sep.htm

And Hokulele had also done imagry comparisons with the LIDAR data:
OK, here are a few more images that will hopefully clarify the scale of the debris. All three images are of the southwestern corner of the site, with WTC 2 to the right, one end of WTC 3 in the middle, and the southern skybridge off to the left. Downloading the images to your computer may make them easier to view. The first image shows the aerial photo of the area of interest (click to enlarge).



Note the skybridge makes a clear landmark to help determine size, location, and scale. The next image is the same section of aerial data with the LIDAR TIN overlay.



This is to give a sense of perspective and to verify that the portions of the images I am discussing are in fact oriented and located correctly. The last image shows the same area in the LIDAR TIN.



Again, the skybridge can be clearly seen. The color of the top of the skybridge is the pale yellow (not any shade of brown), and you can clearly see that the middle of the elevation range across the debris pile inside the footprint of WTC 2 matches this shade, and covers almost half the area of the footprint. This means that almost 50% of the WTC 2 debris pile was between 50 to 75 feet above street level. This corresponds to a (very) rough conservative estimate of 21,500 sq.ft * 60 ft = 1,290,000 cu.ft. of material for just half of the area of the pile.

ETA: I should clarify, half of the area of the pile above street level. I refuse to enter the debate about debris below street level. /ETA

Also note that you can see the blue areas that most likely represent the outer wall panels and the remnant of the core which fall in the 150-200 feet above street level range.

One last thing I should point out here that can help in estimating the size of the debris pile is the average slope across WTC 2's footprint. When estimating slope from survey data (regardless of the type of survey), there are a few things you can check. For the purposes of this image, we only need one of these methods which is to look at the width of each elevation band.

For example, when you look at the skybridge, the color changes from the tan of the road surface to the pale yellow of the top of the bridge in a short horizontal distance. There are a few TIN faces that show the mustard yellow color that represents elevations between 25 and 50 feet. The outer wall panels jump from tan to blue almost instantly. Both of these areas are in extremely steep slope, pretty much vertical.

On the other hand, when you look at the tan area around the skybridge, there are hardly any changes in color, with just the occasional face in orange, meaning the area is fairly flat. You can see a few bumps in the tan areas of the TIN, which most likely correspond to the construction, emergency, and other service vehicles on the site (all less than 25 feet tall). Just think, a full-sized truck is barely a pimple at this scale!

The debris pile within the footprint of WTC 2 has bands of color including the mustard yellow (25-50), pale yellow (50-75), bright yellow (75-100), and culminates with the greens and blues of the core remnant. Measuring these bands (they average 40 feet in width) and comparing them to the elevation ranges gives us a slope of about 62.5%. Considering the steepest road grades you will typically encounter are only about 12% (with a few as much as 20%), this is a huge, steep pile.

The site at Ground Zero was not flat.
The claim that Ground Zero was flat was refuted via this argument alone, and that's before elements like witness testimony and photographs are examined. BTW, here's a photograph that contradicts both the "flat" claim, plus the "dustification" one:
911_HighQualityPhotos1592.jpg



Ground Zero was not flat. Argument was refuted back in 2008. And you've brought nothing new since the last time.
 
um...I think the thermal image I posted pretty much settles this issue.

Not to toot my own horn, but us Hunter Geography people know our ****. As do the DDC surveyors.
 
Jammonius is really in a jam!

First he ignores photographic proof that the steel didn't magically turned to "dust" and secondly that GZ was "flat".

Talk about having delusions of granduer when the photographs tell it differently. Jammonius might as well say that he doesn't exist since his mind is not on this planet.
 
This is from the text you failed to read under the WTC height data image you refused to look at. Notice the "accurate to six inches" bit.





The pile wasn't huge (as in high.) two acres of WTC tower footprint were spread over about 24 acres of open plaza.

Why didn't you just admit GZ was flat in the first place, rather than put us through all this rigamoroll over a simple college newsletter?:D

Next, you'll need to acknowledge the reason GZ was flat was because the massive steel beams and the concrete were turned to dust, almost instantaneously, as they fell, as shown in the new (to most) photos that had been on Dr. Judy Wood's website all along:

slide_4837_67015_large.jpg


Your final stage of recognition will occur when it dawns on you that exotic weaponry, in the nature of directed energy weaponry caused what is seen above.
 
Jammonius is really in a jam!

First he ignores photographic proof that the steel didn't magically turned to "dust" and secondly that GZ was "flat".

Talk about having delusions of granduer when the photographs tell it differently. Jammonius might as well say that he doesn't exist since his mind is not on this planet.


Heh. Who are you going to believe; jammonius, or your lying eyes? I think it's sadly amusing that even jammonius apparently believes himself or herself over his or her own eyes. Definitely something wrong there...
 
elmundo

OK, first Big Al, who has now realized GZ was flat, now, perhaps, it will be your turn. Thanks for resurrecting the last thread that used a lot of that CUNY lidar data to show that GZ was flat. In that thread, a pause was reached at a certain point when posters realized the lidar mapping was showing street level in almost all areas, except where the remants of WTC 3-6 were, and, those remant, 5 to 6 story buildings were clearly the highest structures remaining, by and large.

The photo you have relied on in post #180 is not dated. It shows, I believe a pile that was created by the cleanup process, and not present in the aftermath of the 9/11 attack. Instead, the following is a truer representation of the flatness of GZ:

Image276.jpg


I suppose next someone will get the bright idea that, "oh wait, all of the debris was in the sub-basements." You, however, know better, don't you elmundo. I have already posted up photos of the intact mall which was on the 1st sub-basement level (i.e., the highest). I have already posted both photographs of intact stores, of people freely walking around that 1st subbasement and a map of the stores, haven't I elmundo.

And, you are quite wrong in your argument about nothing being new. The whole point of this thread is to show that some of the newly released photos are showing in greater detail the flatness of GZ and are doing so with a propaganda overlay that seeks to fool us into believeing there was a high pile by using misleading language. Go back to pg. 2 for that.

As for here, try this photo that is amongst those that are new (to some):

ht_img13_018_100212_ssh.jpg
 
Heh. Who are you going to believe; jammonius, or your lying eyes? I think it's sadly amusing that even jammonius apparently believes himself or herself over his or her own eyes. Definitely something wrong there...

Either that or Jammonius really needs a magnifying lense in place of his/her regular contact/frame lenses. Something definantly wrong with his/her eyes!
 
Heh. Who are you going to believe; jammonius, or your lying eyes? I think it's sadly amusing that even jammonius apparently believes himself or herself over his or her own eyes. Definitely something wrong there...




Steel being turned to dust instantaneously:
GJS-WTC030c_original.jpg

Look!
 
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Instead, the following is a truer representation of the flatness of GZ:

[qimg]http://drjudywood.co.uk/articles/DEW/dewpics/Image276.jpg[/qimg]

Amazingly you're too blind to see the fascade still standing and the pile is piled up!

Do you really need an eye transplant to see your flat headedness?
 
Steel being turned to dust instantaneously:
[qimg]http://drjudywood.com/articles/DEW/dewpics/GJS-WTC030c_original.jpg[/qimg]
Look!

Only a lunatic would say that 2" solid steel would just magically "dustify". You can't "dustify" something as solid as steel you nitwit!
 
Jesus Christ... I feel like I'm watching sci-fi every time I read this guys' posts.
Speaking of which Jam... the dustifying of steel you claim is happening in the pics is directly contradicted by pictures YOU have already posted.
 
If the WTC steel was carbon, it would "dustify". We, as human beings are carbon based lifeforms, when our bodies are subjected to fire we turn to dust.

Steel isn't a carbon based substance where it could turn to dust Jammonius. You have nothing to gain from saying that steel could turn to dust Jam. Whatever you're thinking please give it up, you lost and you lost horribly.
 

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