Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Hokulele]

No, it's OK. I'm trying to figure it out as we speak.

Cool. Thank you for sharing.

My wife and I are not Catholic, but we help with a local Catholic food pantry, and we laugh when they say "oh, you are Lutheran - that's like Catholic light." Ha ha. This place does great work, and the nun who runs it should be a saint.

I will always admire people who live and demonstrate their faith, rather than just proclaim it.

But I don't feel super Lutheran-y lately. Let alone Catholic, which they would love us to convert to.

I have started a dialogue with my wife about this lack of faith thing, but it hasn't resolved itself yet. We both are a little lapsed in our churchgoing, but we used to be faithful.

I am glad you can talk about it with your wife. Regardless of where the two of you end up, it sounds like you will get there together (or at least I hope so).

The "E" in JREF for me is having watched 9/11 conspiracists, UFO proponents, bigfoot fans and Christians all using the same flawed thought processes to defend their claims. I am about to read a Christopher Hitchens book, for God's sake.

Huh, I hadn't looked at it that way, but I can see what you mean. I haven't read anything by Hitchens myself (It would be preaching to the choir and where is the "E" in that? ), but it is good to see someone willing to consider viewpoints other than their own.

This is pretty belated, but welcome to the JREF forums!

 

[carlitos]

(OK so my screen shows 247 pages, which makes me think that this isn't really off-topic)

Thanks. Here is the thing that gets me. The African dude who runs the food pantry, he said some absolutely profound **** the other day. He talked about the Christian concept of 'love thy neighbor' as being foreign to him. His world was tribal, and here he was, in a rich Chicago suburb, and a bunch of rich suburbanites were helping his charity. Why should they care about people they don't even know? Where he came from, no one would dream of helping someone they don't know. (insert Good Samaritan story here) I have heard similar tales from soldiers who have served in Iraq. Tribe is everything.

Anyway, my point - what belief system could we implement that would result in the good parts of Christianity being implemented, without all of the dogma and silliness? I don't have any evidence that man will be kind to his fellow man, absent the fear of God.

This is pretty belated, but welcome to the JREF forums!

Thx!

 

[Hokulele]

Anyway, my point - what belief system could we implement that would result in the good parts of Christianity being implemented, without all of the dogma and silliness? I don't have any evidence that man will be kind to his fellow man, absent the fear of God.

There is hope for secular humanism, but people are naughty monkeys by nature (as you noted), so it may take a while to catch on.

Even though my feeble efforts may be dwarfed by idiocy, tribalism, and selfishness, it makes me happier to be, well, humane to my fellow man, so I will carry on regardless.

Cheers to you and your Mrs. for doing the same, regardless of ulterior motive (or lack thereof).

 

[Akhenaten]

You've must have missed all the posts on the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. And are you seriously saying the historical person Jesus' body did not disappear.

I miss very little DOC.


You must have missed all the posts where I've pointed out to you that Akhenaten has an empty tomb as well.

I can provide irrefutable evidence of this, whereas you have not one iota of evidence for your Jeebus' tomb.

How do you answer this?

it certainly is evidence (although not proof) when the famous historical person 11 apostles were following for 3 years died and was reported to have risen from the dead within their lifetime and in their hometown.

Rubbish.

Every single person in ancient Egypt believed not only in the resurrection of Pharaoh, but as his devoted servants they believed in their own resurrection as well.

In the case of Pharaoh, the process took 70 days rather than three, which to me is evidence that they were doing a much better job in Egypt.

How do you answer this?

Don't you think they required some evidence he rose from the dead?

Nup.

And what did those formerly cowardly and uncertain apostles have to gain if they they knew it was not true other than death, persecution, and torture.

Which formerly cowardly and uncertain apostles are these, DOC? The ones you have yet to provide evidence for?

It's a fairytale, DOC. Deal with it.

Name one person killed by a Christian in the first 300 years of its spread and growth from 12 cowardly apostles cowering in an upper room.

Ishmael of Antioch, the armourer.

Prove me wrong.

Let's put it this way, is the truth of Christianity more likely because it grew in a dangerous environment where you could killed for your belief or if it grew out in the middle of nowhere in a peaceful environment like the Mormon Church in Utah.

You've never heard of the Amarna Experiment, have you DOC?

Why do you refuse to educate yourself?

And yes I know Joseph Smith was killed and the the Mormons were persecuted but the Church really didn't have great growth until it moved to Utah (and also polygamy helped the growth).

Leave the jokes to the experts DOC. You don't have the flair for it.

Whereas the early Christian Church did all of its growing in the dangerous Roman Empire including Rome itself.

So did the Druids. What is your point?

 

[Lothian]

You've must have missed all the posts on the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. And are you seriously saying the historical person Jesus' body did not disappear.

I am saying that, when asking which of the NT authors accounts has the most evidence to support it they only have each other. There is no evidence outside the NT.

it certainly is evidence (although not proof) when the famous historical person 11 apostles were following for 3 years died and was reported to have risen from the dead within their lifetime and in their hometown. Don't you think they required some evidence he rose from the dead? And what did those formerly cowardly and uncertain apostles have to gain if they they knew it was not true other than death, persecution, and torture.

It certainly is not evidence of the truth.

David Berkowitz (Corbis) called the Son of Sam, murdered more than 10 women
Bruce Lee murdered 26 people
Peter Sutcliffe murdered 11 girls
Sampson Kanderayi, a mass murderer called The Axe Killer, killed more than 30 people.

All were Christians urged to kill by God. Is this evidence that God wants us to murder?

Name one person killed by a Christian in the first 300 years of its spread and growth from 12 cowardly apostles cowering in an upper room.

There is very little evidence of Christians and Christ during that time other than that written by Christians.

Geisler told us that “The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details About Themselves.” and that is a evidence of truth.

It is not conceivable that in 300 years there was not a single killing by a Christian. Therefore the lack of inclusion of a killing by a Christian is evidence that the resurrection is not true.


You appear to be glossing over the subsequent spread of Christianity by the sword.

Let's put it this way, is the truth of Christianity more likely because it grew in a dangerous environment where you could killed for your belief or if it grew out in the middle of nowhere in a peaceful environment like the Mormon Church in Utah. And yes I know Joseph Smith was killed and the the Mormons were persecuted but the Church really didn't have great growth until it moved to Utah (and also polygamy helped the growth). Whereas the early Christian Church did all of its growing in the dangerous Roman Empire including Rome itself.

No, the truth of Christianity is not affected by its subsequent rise.

The Mormons, Scientologists and Pastafarians have not had the 300 years yet to make the comparison to Christianity. This looks like an appeal to popularity or one little duck as we like to say in DOCBINGO^TM.

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[Mr Clingford]

I am not familiar with all the other Gospels outside the Bible that are not considered, well, gospel. Do they make reference to a resurrected Jesus? It's only a minor point I'm asking.

 

[Akhenaten]

Hi Mr Clingford! It's been ages.

I don't think they do, and that's partly why Nicea decided that they were 'apocryphal'.

If someone clever doesn't chip in shortly, I'll do some research towards giving you a better answer.


Cheers,

Dave

 

[Akhenaten]

Name one person killed by a Christian in the first 300 years of its spread and growth from 12 cowardly apostles cowering in an upper room.

Jeebus even had it in for fig trees DOC. I have liittle doubt his followers would have few qualms about zapping people who annoyed them.

God was doing it all the time, according the big book of fairytales.

Let's put it this way, is the truth of Christianity more likely because it grew in a dangerous environment where you could killed for your belief or if it grew out in the middle of nowhere in a peaceful environment like the Mormon Church in Utah.

You could just as easily apply that argument to the Sikhs and Buddhists plying their faith in overwhelmingly Hindu India.



ETA: Here fishy, fishy, fishy . . .

 

[paximperium]

I am not familiar with all the other Gospels outside the Bible that are not considered, well, gospel. Do they make reference to a resurrected Jesus? It's only a minor point I'm asking.

The Gospel of Mary Magdelene makes mention of Mary seeing Jesus in vision.

 

[amb]

The Gospel of Mary Magdelene makes mention of Mary seeing Jesus in vision.

But all these gospels are Gnostic in nature. Probably written in the second or third century if not later.
Our earliest gospel is Mark. And he says only that Jesus was ''crucified and buried'' according to the scriptures. That is it. That particular gospel ends there. There is no resurrection or visions of the risen lord in this very primitive and shortest of all the other gospels that came later.

 

[paximperium]

But all these gospels are Gnostic in nature. Probably written in the second or third century if not later.
Our earliest gospel is Mark. And he says only that Jesus was ''crucified and buried'' according to the scriptures. That is it. That particular gospel ends there. There is no resurrection or visions of the risen lord in this very primitive and shortest of all the other gospels that came later.

Wasn't there one gospel that told the story of Jesus flying down to purgotory to save all the unsaved Jewish prophets?

 

[DOC]

DOC, I know that this might make you feel bad, but I think that you should know. This thread, more than anything else, caused me to lose my faith in God. I'm not kidding, and I'm not lying. If you PM me, I can point you to a years-long history of posts elsewhere where I self-identify as Christian. I'm going to stop doing that now, mostly because of you. I just thought that you should know.

If what you say is true, don't blame me blame Norman Geisler the author of over 60 apologetic books. And you can also blame apologist (and former skeptic) Ralph Muncaster author of the 605 page book "Examine the Evidence". And also Josh Mcdowell author of many apologetic and Christian books. For the most part I'm just the messenger of their books and some other websites.

And if what you say is true, can you tell me some of the exact posts that have made you lose your faith in God.

 

[paximperium]

If what you say is true, don't blame me blame Norman Geisler the author of over 60 apologetic books. And you can also blame apologist (and former skeptic) Ralph Muncaster author of the 605 page book "Examine the Evidence". And also Josh Mcdowell author of many apologetic and Christian books. For the most part I'm just the messenger of their books and some other websites.

And if what you say is true, can you tell me some of the exact posts that have made you lose your faith in God.

What do you call someone who does not take responsibility for his own incompetant apolegetics?

 

[Lothian]

If what you say is true, don't blame me blame Norman Geisler the author of over 60 apologetic books. And you can also blame apologist (and former skeptic) Ralph Muncaster author of the 605 page book "Examine the Evidence". And also Josh Mcdowell author of many apologetic and Christian books. For the most part I'm just the messenger of their books and some other websites.

And if what you say is true, can you tell me some of the exact posts that have made you lose your faith in God.

But Doc, you have put this stuff out there and invited people to make up their own minds. I apprecate that you may have wished for an Atheist or Agnostic or even a Bhuddhist, Muslim or Hindu to turn to Christianity. However the fact that you are making Christians in to non believers is evidence that Geisler, Muncaster et al are not telling the truth.


Tom mix number 6, Lucky 7.

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[DOC]

DOC, I asked you this before and you never answered: Why could not Jesus have told his followers that THEY were not to own slaves? "Society takes time to change", you assert, but why could he not at least try to start that change? He could have said something like, "I tell you, my brothers, YOU are not to own slaves, because it is wrong. Let those who don't know better do as they will, but YOU now know better, so YOU are not to buy or sell or own human beings." Why didn't he? Did he -- God incarnate, all-knowing and all-wise -- not anticipate that people of future times would interpret what he did say as an endorsement of slavery?

Well Jesus did tell the apostles there was some things he did not teach because they were more then they could bear and that he would send the Holly Spirit who would teach all things. The bible also said Jesus said many things that were not recorded just before he was resurrected.

Slavery could have been one of those things he did not think the apostles could bear at that time or slavery could have been one of those many things he talked about that was not recorded.

 

[Lothian]

Well Jesus did tell the apostles there was some things he did not teach because they were more then they could bear and that he would send the Holly Spirit who would teach all things. The bible also said Jesus said many things that were not recorded just before he was resurrected.

Slavery could have been one of those things he did not think the apostles could bear at that time or slavery could have been one of those many things he talked about that was not recorded.

So when did God send the holly spirit to make this message. Who did the holly spirit speak to and what evidence is there that it was the holly spirit talking?

17. Dancing Queen , Coming of Age 18.

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[paximperium]

Well Jesus did tell the apostles there was some things he did not teach because they were more then they could bear and that he would send the Holly Spirit who would teach all things. The bible also said Jesus said many things that were not recorded just before he was resurrected.

Slavery could have been one of those things he did not think the apostles could bear at that time or slavery could have been one of those many things he talked about that was not recorded.

So DOC's god is a moral relativist...and pretty pathetically weak as well.

 

[amb]

DOC, you really should widen you reading a little. Instead of reading nothing but apologetic, how about you read some critical books of apologetics. Just to see what other scholars have to say on the subject. I strongly recommend to you any book from John Shelby Spong, but especially, Saving The Bible From Fundamentalists
who is in truth still a christian, but a very liberal one.

 

[Lothian]

Notice how the article said "it probably read" -- that should tell you something about the article.

Slavery could have been one of those things he did not think the apostles could bear at that time or slavery could have been one of those many things he talked about that was not recorded.

Notice how the Doc said "could" -- that should tell you something about his post.

 

[DOC]

But Doc, you have put this stuff out there and invited people to make up their own minds. I apprecate that you may have wished for an Atheist or Agnostic or even a Bhuddhist, Muslim or Hindu to turn to Christianity. However the fact that you are making Christians in to non believers is evidence that Geisler, Muncaster et al are not telling the truth.

So you believe some stranger off the internet you have never met, but you don't believe someone called one of the world's greatest historians (gospel writer Luke) by Sir William M. Ramsay?

And even if what this single person says is true, that's just his opinion and doesn't prove Geisler and others are wrong. Even Jesus caused people to hate him, does that mean Jesus is wrong. Notice as of yet, this person has not explained specifically why he has lost his faith, just that he has. If he "specifically" said why and what "specific" posts caused this maybe I could show him that his reasoning is incorrect or not logical.