MLM

[icerat]

Well, these days it's a little more complicated than that. Commercialisation of findings *does* restrict others, particularly to access of funding. Who wants to fund a project that cannot be commercialised because someone else already holds the patents? I don't think it blocks stuff for ever, but it certainly slows things down. When it's an area that's also full of obvious scams and controversy it's even more incentive to put your time and money in to researching something else.

Nevertheless, there is substantial continued research in the field.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Whether magnetic therapy works or not kind of doesn't matter does it? I know their soap works but I still think the whole thing is a scam.

 

[icerat]

With regards purported MLMs, it does matter. If you have a scam product and your'e deceiving people about it's worth, then it's a scam no matter whether the business model is good or not.

Unfortunately, due to the low cost of entry not just for MLM participants, but also for companies, MLM can be a model of choice to promote a scam product - and there's a fair share of that going on.

 

[maximara]

With regards purported MLMs, it does matter. If you have a scam product and your'e deceiving people about it's worth, then it's a scam no matter whether the business model is good or not.

Unfortunately, due to the low cost of entry not just for MLM participants, but also for companies, MLM can be a model of choice to promote a scam product - and there's a fair share of that going on.

Considering there are people who claim that the entire MLM model is flawed and nothing more than a legal pyramid scheme even if a legitimate product or service is involved there is no difference.

The failure rate of over 99% is well documented and even the DSA says that the median annual income for those in direct sales (including MLMs) is $2,400 which is down from the average of about $5,000 in 1998 both of which are way below the income of a part-time (20 hours) minimum wage earner of the time ($5,356 in 1998 and $7,540 today)

The moment you realize that MLMs increases the number of middle men then you realize that there is no way for every one to make money. At best MLM work like wholesale clubs where you pay a fee to get the discount of the products and that is the way most people actually use the legitimate ones.


References

Carroll, Robert Todd (2003). The Skeptic's Dictionary: A Collection of Strange Beliefs, Amusing Deceptions, and Dangerous Delusions. John Wiley & Sons. pp. 235–36. ISBN 0471272426.

Coenen, Tracy (2009). Expert Fraud Investigation: A Step-by-Step Guide. Wiley. pp. 168. ISBN 0470387963.

Cruz, Joan Paola; Camilo Olaya (2008) "A System Dynamics Model for Studying the Structure of Network Marketing Organizations" (peer reviewed paper that refers uses Taylor as references)

Ogunjobi, Timi (2008). SCAMS - and how to protect yourself from them. Tee Publishing. pp. 13-19.

Peterecca, Laura (Sept 14, 2009). "What kind of business do you want to start?". USAToday (Gannett Company): pp. 4B.

Ryan (Editor), Leo; Wojciech, Gasparski (Editor); Georges, Enderle (Editor) (2000). Business Students Focus on Ethics (Praxiology): The international Annual of Practical Philosophy and Methodology Volume 8. New Jersey: Transaction Publishers. pp. 75. ISBN 0765800373.

Taylor, Jon M. (2002). "Comparing Recruiting MLM’s with No-product Pyramid Schemes, and with Gambling". Consumers Awareness Institute.

 

[NewtonTrino]

All you have to do is follow the system and you will succeed. Well if success means getting sucked into a business cult and enriching the cult leaders.

I challenge ANY MLM'r to come onto this board and give us your tax return numbers for the last year.

<chirp chirp>

Is that crickets I hear?

 

[icerat]

The failure rate of over 99% is well documented

No it's not.

and even the DSA says that the median annual income for those in direct sales (including MLMs) is $2,400 which is down from the average of about $5,000 in 1998 both of which are way below the income of a part-time (20 hours) minimum wage earner of the time ($5,356 in 1998 and $7,540 today)

On what basis do you (incorrectly) believe the average MLMer puts in 20hrs/wk?

The moment you realize that MLMs increases the number of middle men then you realize that there is no way for every one to make money.

The FTC investigated Amway for several years in the 1970s and the court found this simply wasn't the case, with the number of "middlemen" generally less than 3 or 4 - comparable to traditional distribution. Some MLMs have "fixed" numbers of levels where payout is made, but it rarely (ever?) exceeds what is commonly found in the traditional distribution, and some of those I wholly agree are not competitive in the market and may be scams.

At best MLM work like wholesale clubs where you pay a fee to get the discount of the products and that is the way most people actually use the legitimate ones.

Interesting that you acknowledge this occurs, but for some reason believe they should be making money like someone working 20hrs/wk?

References

Was that list supposed to be amusing? It was.

 

[icerat]

I challenge ANY MLM'r to come onto this board and give us your tax return numbers for the last year.

<chirp chirp>

Is that crickets I hear?

I challenge any NBA player to come on to this board and give us your tax return numbers for the last year.

<chirp chirp>

Is that crickets I hear?

Clearly there's no money in pro-basketball!

 

[Skeptic]

I challenge any NBA player to come on to this board and give us your tax return numbers for the last year.

<chirp chirp>

Is that crickets I hear?

Clearly there's no money in pro-basketball!

Not exactly. We know how much money there is in pro basketball. We know what the minimum salary is, what the payroll is. We also know how much money there is in MLMs. We know the number of those involved and the amount of sales from MLM corporation reports.

This is why we know that the average NBA player makes about $100,000 a month or so, while the average MLMer makes about $100 -- before expenses.

The problem is all the pro-MLM guys tell us they are the exception -- that they are making money in this "wonderful opportunity". That is why we ask for tax returns.

How much profit did you make, on average, per month in your MLM business, after expenses?

How many hours did you put in, on average, per month in your MLM business?

What does that make your average salary?

 

[icerat]

We also know how much money there is in MLMs. We know the number of those involved and the amount of sales from MLM corporation reports.

Care to share this info? No MLM I know of even *knows* how many people are actively involved trying to build an income. It can at best only be guestimated from surveys.

This is why we know that the average NBA player makes about $100,000 a month or so, while the average MLMer makes about $100 -- before expenses.

Even the companies don't know this info, but you do? Amazing. Or let me guess, you, for no reason at all and contrary to all reports facts, let alone plain old logic and common sense, arbitrarily define anyone who registers with a company as an "MLMer" even if they do so purely to get distributor pricing or do so with intent but then never take action to earn an income.

Yeah, I get it. It's a scam because you don't make money for doing nothing. Frankly from my perspective only people who don't have much integrity and were actively wanting some "get rich quick" scam (and were disappointed) could think along those lines.

The problem is all the pro-MLM guys tell us they are the exception -- that they are making money in this "wonderful opportunity". That is why we ask for tax returns.

mmm, but court documents, check photographs for millions, affidavit's etc don't count. Just whether some anonymous guy on the net is willing to post his private tax returns for the world to see.

How much profit did you make, on average, per month in your MLM business, after expenses?

more than zero

How many hours did you put in, on average, per month in your MLM business?

zero

What does that make your average salary?

infinite apparently.

Not that we get a salary. It's not a job, it's a business. Get a clue.

But ok,

I challenge any McDonalds' Franchisee to come on to this board and give us your tax return numbers for the last year.

<chirp chirp>

Is that crickets I hear?

Clearly there's no money in McDonalds!

 

[NewtonTrino]

Given that we have MLM'ers on here and there are an order of magnitude more of them than there are McDonalds owners I don't think you have much of a point.

Also this information is readily available if you are going to buy a mcdonalds franchise.

 

[icerat]

1. I'd suggest the number of MLMers who put as much time and effort into their businesses as McDonald's owners is orders of magnitude LESS than the number of McDonald's owners. I'd also suggest the number of MLMers who invest as much money into their business as McDonald's owners is zero.

2. Financial disclosure information is also readily available if you are going to buy an existing MLM business.

 

[NewtonTrino]

1. I'd suggest the number of MLMers who put as much time and effort into their businesses as McDonald's owners is orders of magnitude LESS than the number of McDonald's owners. I'd also suggest the number of MLMers who invest as much money into their business as McDonald's owners is zero.

I doubt your numbers but on an average basis of course this is going to be true. Most people simply don't have the financial resources to buy a mcdonald's franchise. That's one of the main pitches of MLM, that it's cheap to get into. On the flip side I GUARANTEE that there are MANY MANY MORE MLMer's who have put more time into their crappy MLM business than there are McDonald's owners who have put time into their business per dollar returned. MLM is a giant sucking sound of cash flowing out of their wallets into their uplines wallets.

2. Financial disclosure information is also readily available if you are going to buy an existing MLM business.

Yes, but if you want to start being a distributor there is nobody that will tell you what they are making. MLMer's simply lie about their income on a consistent and ongoing basis.

So Icerat, we've been arguing this crap for well over a year. How much money did you make in the last year from scamway? I simply can't believe your audacity in coming in here to defend a business that you don't make any kind of significant money from. What a joke.

 

[Skeptic]

You got to love the way MLMers speak:

"It's a great opportunity! It's a wonderful business! Keep doing it and you'll be rich!"

"Wow. Say, how much did you make last month in the MLM?"

"Er... that's private... more than zero, I can assure you... let's speak about something else..."

 

[NewtonTrino]

You got to love the way MLMers speak:

"It's a great opportunity! It's a wonderful business! Keep doing it and you'll be rich!"

"Wow. Say, how much did you make last month in the MLM?"

"Er... that's private... more than zero, I can assure you... let's speak about something else..."

MLM's tend to fall into a couple of categories. Suckers who lose money on a consistent basis or those sitting at the top profiting from the scam by selling tapes, books, conferences etc. Both groups have little reason to show their income. In the money losing case it doesn't look good. In the kingpins case it looks bad because it would be obvious that they earn the majority of their income from selling motivational crap. Either way they aren't going to reveal it.

Of course people involved in real businesses are often asked to give financial statements when someone is going to be investing (and for lots of other reasons as well like getting credit lined up). Keep in mind that time is an investment, not just money. Why would I invest my valuable time in this crap if I can't even get a financial statement from the person asking me to invest?

 

[icerat]

On the flip side I GUARANTEE that there are MANY MANY MORE MLMer's who have put more time into their crappy MLM business than there are McDonald's owners who have put time into their business per dollar returned.

Got some figures to back that up? No, didn't think so.

Yes, but if you want to start being a distributor there is nobody that will tell you what they are making. MLMer's simply lie about their income on a consistent and ongoing basis.

If I'm showing someone the business and they ask what I'm making, I tell them. Of course, what difference does that make - you're quite happy to claim, with no evidence at all, that millions of MLMers around the world lie all the time about it.

Any evidence to back that up? No, didn't think so.

So Icerat, we've been arguing this crap for well over a year. How much money did you make in the last year from scamway? I simply can't believe your audacity in coming in here to defend a business that you don't make any kind of significant money from. What a joke.

Right, so anyone can attack something if they've got no personal experience with it, but to support it you have to be actively and deeply involved and making money for it.

But of course.

So someone like Jon Taylor can say what he likes and you'll accept it as gospel, but respected business academics like Professor Dominique Xardel or Professor Charles King - they've nothing to contribute, no credibility, they're not doing it.

How convenient for you.

There's hundreds of thousands, probably millions, making money from network marketing around the world. You choose to ignore that. One more datapoint would make little difference either to that reality or your choice to ignore it.

 

[maximara]

No it's not.

Sorry icerat but unlike you I provided actual references to back up my claim. Peer reviewed papers and publications from reputable publishing houses. Simple claiming something does not make it true. Randi himself criticized this mentality in the Nova/Horizon episode "Secrets of the Psychics".

On what basis do you (incorrectly) believe the average MLMer puts in 20hrs/wk?

If they put in more than the return is lower than the minimum wage of the US (which was my point).

Was that list supposed to be amusing? It was.

Translation: I have nothing to counter this and will ignore it and try to do a misdirection. It is not going to work.

 

[maximara]

Got some figures to back that up? No, didn't think so.

Actually there is proof--it was in these references:

Balandin, Sergey; Moltchanev, Dmitri; Koucheryavy, Yevgeni (2009) "Fault-Tolerant Architecture for Peer to Peer Network Management Systems" Smart Spaces and Next Generation Wired/Wireless Networking pg 249

Brown, David (November 27, 2007). "Marketing group merely ‘selling a dream’". The Times.

Carroll, Robert Todd (2003). The Skeptic's Dictionary: A Collection of Strange Beliefs, Amusing Deceptions, and Dangerous Delusions. John Wiley & Sons. pp. 235–36. ISBN 0471272426.

Coenen, Tracy (2009). Expert Fraud Investigation: A Step-by-Step Guide. Wiley. pp. 168. ISBN 0470387963.

Cruz, Joan Paola; Camilo Olaya (2008) "A System Dynamics Model for Studying the Structure of Network Marketing Organizations" (peer reviewed paper that refers uses Taylor as references)

Ogunjobi, Timi (2008). SCAMS - and how to protect yourself from them. Tee Publishing. pp. 13-19.

Peterecca, Laura (Sept 14, 2009). "What kind of business do you want to start?". USAToday (Gannett Company): pp. 4B.

Ryan (Editor), Leo; Wojciech, Gasparski (Editor); Georges, Enderle (Editor) (2000). Business Students Focus on Ethics (Praxiology): The international Annual of Practical Philosophy and Methodology Volume 8. New Jersey: Transaction Publishers. pp. 75. ISBN 0765800373.

Taylor, Jon M. (2002). "Comparing Recruiting MLM’s with No-product Pyramid Schemes, and with Gambling". Consumers Awareness Institute.

Tony Dokoupil (August 2, 2008). "A Drink’s Purple Reign". Newsweek.

So stop wasting our time with empty claims that are not supported by peer reviewed papers and books or articles in reliable publications.

 

[icerat]

Sorry icerat but unlike you I provided actual references to back up my claim. Peer reviewed papers and publications from reputable publishing houses. Simple claiming something does not make it true.

Peer reviewed papers? There were none. Closest was a conference presentation than regurgitates info, without commentary, from Jon Taylors self-published rubbish, which says a lot about it's quality alas.

As best I can tell none of the rest supported your assertion at all. Heck, one of them even says "Successful salespeople can earn six-figure incomes", but you neglected to mention that part.

The 99% loss claim comes from Taylor's long discredited bogus "analysis". It's rubbish and I suspect you know it.

 

[icerat]

Actually there is proof--it was in these references:

None of them compare MLM hours to McDonald's hours. Not one. The first one isn't even about network marketing. Why do you have to make stuff up?

So stop wasting our time with empty claims that are not supported by peer reviewed papers and books or articles in reliable publications.

Oh right, so you make "empty claims that are not supported by peer reviewed papers and books or articles in reliable publications" but it's up to me to prove your claims wrong through such references. Uhuh.

 

[Skeptic]

Icerat is pissed with Taylor not because it's the weakest work cited, but because it is the most forecful and the most embarrasing to MLMers. Icerat, of course, won't tell us how much he made in this "great opportunity".

None of them compare MLM hours to McDonald's hours. Not one.

But that's rather easy to do. You take the average MLM income and divide it into the average number of hours MLMers put in, and you easily find that working at an MLM earns less than working for McDonald's. MLM's average income is so low it is below most third-world countries' salaries.