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Ancient Pyramids and other structures, astronomical alignment & similarity.

King of the Americas said:
Alright...my apologies for the improper abbreviations...I think I was in Junior High before I became aware that "King Tutt" wasn't a "king" but a "Pharaoh", and that his name was "Tutankhamun". (potato potato)
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No apology needed mate, but I thought I'd correct you on it because it looks a bit amateurish. The point I should have made is that the normal abbreviation is 'Tut' with just the one 't', although if we're going to have a serious dicussion we may as well stick to proper spellings.

Joking around with names isn't offensive or anything, and all good in its place.

Calling Pharaoh 'the King' isn't really wrong either, and in some cases it's more accurate.

The term 'Pharaoh' has a somewhat broader meaning than 'King' and can be applied to the entire Royal House, perhaps in the same way that we might refer to 'the White House' or 'Buckingham Palace' when we really mean the President or the Queen.

Another name for King, especially in the Old Kingdom is 'Horus' implying that the god was personified within the king. I occasionally include this title as 'Re-Horakty'.

Within the Royal Household, the Royal Personage would be referred to as 'the King'. For example Eye is the Fan Bearer on the Right of the King.


King of the Americas said:
Okay forget my comments about the Book of the Dead, and its absence from the Great Pyramid. Where's the ornamentation of ANY kind?
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I'm guessing you meant 'was there . . .?' The answer is 'No.'


For not much better reason than it wasn't the style of the time.


King of the Americas said:
http://sonsothunder.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/khufu_cartouche11.jpg


Maybe if 'I' sign my name on some obscure location on the Empire State Building, 3000 years from now people will think 'I' ordered and paid for its construction. Although I seriously doubt it will still be standing 3 millennia from today.
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It doesn't work like that. People will know who built the ESB by looking at the City Records. We can do that for Giza just the same, with the bonus that they're literally set in stone and might arguably outlast New York's.


Incidenatally, there's a lot of speculation that the cartouche in your link wasn't actually scratched there at the time of the Pyramid's construction at all, which leaves a grand total of no inscriptions in there at all. I'm pretty sure Dr Hawass subscribes to this view.


King of the Americas said:
So, my REPEATED question is, besides the above linked inscription, what evidence is used to conclude that the Great Pyramid was the tomb of Khufu?
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No that's not the question you were asking. You were asking specifically about inscriptions on or in the Pyramid itself.

There are none, and the cartouche in your link was most certainly not used to identify it. It might even be fake, but it matters little.


To answer your question, the Great Pyramid, while unadorned itself, sat in the middle of a huge temple complex. In this case, it's Khufu's Temple.

Bit of a giveaway.

Before you ask, yes, there were inscriptions about the place, including this one:


KhufusHorizon.jpg


That's the Pyramid's name. "Khufu's Horizon'

Not many mysteries here, really.


King of the Americas said:
---

ETA:

<snipped some stuff>

There ARE reasons to question whether or not that inscriptions are authentic:

It would appear that one "Zecharia Sitchin" is responsible for ALL of the consideration that the above inscription was forged.

Alright, now I'm dizzy.
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Soz, I wrote my comments above before I read this bit, but no matter, we appear to agree on some shenanigans having happened.

However, despite it's possible bogusness, it makes not a jot of difference as far as knowing that it's Pharaoh Khufu's Pyramid.
 
Marcus said:
I hear it's quite an experience to crawl way back into Khufu's pyramid, or at least as far as they will let you. I believe the King's chamber is included. It's not an easy task, the tunnels are small.
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King of the Americas said:
I'd give away a kidney to do that...
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There's almost nothing in the Great Pyramid, and while I agree that it would be a buzz, it's got nothing on the possibilities of KV5. There are hundreds of rooms down there, and nobody knows how far the passages go.

So far, they've cleared 7% of it. Imagine what might be hidden in that other 93%.
 
Akhenaten said:
There's almost nothing in the Great Pyramid, and while I agree that it would be a buzz, it's got nothing on the possibilities of KV5. There are hundreds of rooms down there, and nobody knows how far the passages go.

So far, they've cleared 7% of it. Imagine what might be hidden in that other 93%.
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Those darn grave robbers, just can't seem to keep them out no matter how far you dig. If I ever make it to Egypt, I'll definitely check out Ramses place as well. Do they let you go down into KV5 as a tourist?
 
Akhenaten said:
There's almost nothing in the Great Pyramid, and while I agree that it would be a buzz, it's got nothing on the possibilities of KV5. There are hundreds of rooms down there, and nobody knows how far the passages go.

So far, they've cleared 7% of it. Imagine what might be hidden in that other 93%.
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Unfortunately it is not likely anyone left a dimension gate or remote control for a hidden spaceship there. ;)
 
swskeptic said:
Okay, I'll try to make this short.

Last night was my 211 Religions class. We talked about Native American spiritual beliefs, which he somehow managed to turn into talking about ancient structures and their astronomical alignment and similarities to each other.

Basically he was dumbfounded by the fact that most ancient structures are cocked just right so as to align perfectly with the solstices and whatnot. He was also apparently awestruck how similar ziggurats were all around the world.

I, along with some other classmates tried to explain to him that it's not like these were all made one Saturday thousands of years ago but rather over thousands of years. One way we tried to explain it to him was that it's not like these ancient people had much else to do but stare up at the sky. They developed these buildings and mathematical alignments over what I'm willing to bet is hundreds of years. The fact that these ziggurats were so similar on one side of the earth to the other was that they were simply the easiest sort of structure to build.

Here are some examples of what he was showing:

Serpent Mound, Google search for Ziggurat, Stonehenge

Now, here lies the problem. I know what I said to him wasn't obviously a great explanation and I'd like to hear an explanation for this myself. If anyone here knows anything about this or can find something I'd appreciate it. All I can really find is woowoo mumbojumbo. Thanks!
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No offense and no gaming intended - because everybody knows why those that are aligned were built that way - but it is not perfectly clear that the "he" you refer to is your teacher. If it is, he has no business teaching the course. Oh, the reason they aligned was to remind/celebrate the times when planting, etc. should be done. Food saved or killed so keeping track of the seasons was a Really Big Deal.:):) No biggie! and No Coincidences.
 
Marcus said:
Those darn grave robbers, just can't seem to keep them out no matter how far you dig. If I ever make it to Egypt, I'll definitely check out Ramses place as well. Do they let you go down into KV5 as a tourist?
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KV5 (The Tomb of Ramesses Sons) has suffered the same fate as a number of the tombs lower down in the Valley - ingress of rubble caused by flooding. It's lucky the same thing didn't happen to KV62 (Tutankhamun) which is more or less just across the road.

KV5 is closed to the public, but only because it's too hard to get far past the entrance. In the uncleared rooms the debris is almost up to the ceiling.

The Theban Mapping Project is on the job.


Sidenote: The Tomb of Ramesses II (the Great) is KV7. It's open to the public, I believe, and it's huge, but unfortunately most of the decoration has been lost to moisture damage.



Toke said:
Unfortunately it is not likely anyone left a dimension gate or remote control for a hidden spaceship there. ;)
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Those are in a area known as the Great Enclosure, to the west of the buried pyramid of Sekhemkhet at Saqqara.
 
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Akhenaten said:
Incidenatally, there's a lot of speculation that the cartouche in your link wasn't actually scratched there at the time of the Pyramid's construction at all, which leaves a grand total of no inscriptions in there at all. I'm pretty sure Dr Hawass subscribes to this view.

[qimg]http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/KhufusHorizon.jpg[/qimg]​

Soz, I wrote my comments above before I read this bit, but no matter, we appear to agree on some shenanigans having happened.

However, despite it's possible bogusness, it makes not a jot of difference as far as knowing that it's Pharaoh Khufu's Pyramid.
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Whilst I was researching, I ran across this:

http://www.hallofthegods.org/articles/who-built-great-pyramid.html

"...The Inventory Stele, found in 1857 by Auguste Mariette to the east of the Great Pyramid, dates to about 1500 B.C. According to Maspero and other experts, however, it shows evidence of having been copied from a far older stele originating in the 4th Dynasty. In this Stele, the pharaoh Khufu speaks of his discoveries made while clearing away the sands from the Great Pyramid and Sphinx. He dedicated the account to Isis, who he called the ‘Mistress of the Western Mountain’, and the ‘Mistress of the Pyramid’, and identified the Great Pyramid itself as the ‘House of Isis’..."

The link goes on to say that it is likely Khufu 'adopted' the Great Pyramid, and erected the surrounding temples, as well as repaired the structure...
 
The page is peddling a book (Alexander: Hall of the Gods), here is part of the review.

Nineteenth century: Shortly after his initiation into the Brotherhood of Freemasons, Baron Algernon Northgate learns of the fabled ‘Lost Hall of Records’ in Egypt. The Hall is believed to contain the secrets of a highly advanced civilisation, destroyed during the catastrophic global changes (earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tidal waves and enormous rises in sea level) that occurred at the end of the last ice age. Determined to find the Hall of Records, the Baron spends many years in Egypt where he makes a number of remarkable discoveries.
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Throwing some woo around must be good for sales.
 
King of the Americas said:
Whilst I was researching, I ran across this:

http://www.hallofthegods.org/articles/who-built-great-pyramid.html

<rubbish>

The link goes on to say that it is likely Khufu 'adopted' the Great Pyramid, and erected the surrounding temples, as well as repaired the structure...
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Researching???

When the first paragraph of a page of alleged archæology begins:


Egyptologists would have us believe that the Great Pyramid and its two sister pyramids were built in the early dynastic period of the Old Kingdom, about 4,600 years ago.
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You should stop reading, because the author has lost his objectivity in the first five words. It's ever been thus.

It's hard to make out what that guy is claiming, but he seems to want us to believe that the Pyramids at Giza predate Snephru's Pyramids, which were built by the guy who invented Pyramids.

No thank you.
 
Egyptologists would have us believe that the Great Pyramid and its two sister pyramids were built in the early dynastic period of the Old Kingdom, about 4,600 years ago.

The highlighted phrase should be a big red flag for anyone trying to research any subject.
 
Akhenaten said:
Researching???

When the first paragraph of a page of alleged archæology begins:

You should stop reading, because the author has lost his objectivity in the first five words. It's ever been thus.

It's hard to make out what that guy is claiming, but he seems to want us to believe that the Pyramids at Giza predate Snephru's Pyramids, which were built by the guy who invented Pyramids.

No thank you.
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...?

So, this 'stele' is non-existent?
 
More on the pyramid workers' tombs:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/pyramid_builders_01.shtml

http://www.drhawass.com/blog/video-tombs-pyramid-builders (video including shots inside one of the tombs which contains heiroglyphs of the titles of some of the workers)

http://www.drhawass.com/blog/new-tombs-pyramid-builders-found

Titles found in the tombs are of draftsmen, craftsmen, overseer of the workmen who move the stones, etc. The titles found and the location of the tombs so close to the pyramids, as well as their quality, indicate that the people buried there did, in fact, build the pyramids, and were most certainly not slaves. Slaves would not have been able to build their tombs so close to the tomb of their king. It is also clear that these people who built the pyramids were Egyptian, not from any lost civilization.

The layout of the cemetery of the pyramid builders further supports the idea that the workmen were divided into gangs, and that each gang had an overseer and a name. For example, the name of the gang “friends of Khufu” is recorded in the 5 relieving chambers above the king’s burial chamber in the Great Pyramid.

We also know from the excavations in the area east of my work, that the workmen slaughtered about 11 cows and 33 goats every day, which could feed around 10,000 workmen a day. Herodotus recorded that there were 100,000 workmen who built the pyramids, but from estimates of how many people it would take to move the amount of stone needed to build the pyramids, and the amount of food available, 10,000 workmen is the best estimate.
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Marduk said:
would this be a good time to mention that the monuments as well as many parts of the Giza plateau have been comprehensively carbon dated and none of the dates returned caused any paradigm shift at all
http://www.aeraweb.org/how_old.asp
;)
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I typed "carbon date giza plateau" in my favorite search engine and it was the second on the list.

Trivially easy. Didn't KotA use the word "research" in one of his posts?
 
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