Penn & Teller episode on Catholicism draws outrage

[GreNME]

Wait, how hard are they supposed to try and get an RCC representative? If they contacted the RCC, explained what they were doing and the RCC declined to have an official representation on the show, what else can be done?

Well, not lying about Sabina Guzzanti and the Vatican would have been a start toward intellectual honesty.

 

[Sledge]

They probably could have gotten someone to support the church without speaking for the church (Bill Donohue, for example, not that he would have), but that probably wouldn't be much better.

That would be worse. Anything the guy said would be non-official, so P&T's responses to it would be undermined from the start.

 

[Belz...]

From the press release:

There is no legitimate place for this kind of frontal assault on any demographic group.

Of course there is. That's what democracy's all about.

 

[Verklagekasper]

I don't know how hard they tried to get a speaker of the RCC. Fact is, there is none in this episode. Fact is, they claim within the first 3 minutes that "the Pope and his crew" denied the Holocaust. Which is, in P&T's words, ********. I find this outrageous, and there are more ******** claims in this episode. Don't you have the least problem with these selfproclaimed fighters against ******** to spread LIES?

So you denounce them because they don't satisfy your guidelines for "best effort" to try and get a RCC speaker on the show? That seems somewhat disingenuous. I'll have to re-watch the episode to check on that claim, and I'll get back to you. I'm at work right now and I don't have my P&T eps with me, so I'll have to get back to you in the morning.

Since you keep ignoring the part about P&Ts' lies, don't bother. I don't care about cultists' opinions.

 

[Vermonter]

Since you keep ignoring the part about P&Ts' lies, don't bother. I don't care about cultists' opinions.

A little snippy are we? As it is I'm watching the episode right now.
According to the episode, in 2008 the Vatican pressured Italian courts threaten to charge Sabina with slander against the Pope. This is the Reuters news story from September of 2008.

As to the charge of holocaust denial, I find a reference to D. Kranzler, Thy Brother's Blood, Mes. Publications, 1987, p. 279. from Wikipedia.

In Slovakia, for example, Archbishop Karol Kmetko responded to a Jewish plea of assistance in March 1942 with the words, "You shall not merely be deported. You shall be killed..And this will be your punishment for your killing of our saviour." - Source

This is one reference to a Holocaust-denying Bishop, though his viewpoint was later rendered defunct by the Second Vatican Council during the early-mid 60s. He was excommunicated in 1988, and the excommunication was later lifted in 2009.

Perhaps it is a weaker example, but there was a time that Holocaust denial was deemed "fair" for Catholic officials, considering it took until 1962 for the Church to officially come out and state what their position on the Holocaust was, and even more so, that it took another 26 years for them to excommunicate the Bishop for his antisemitic views. There are mixed reports that say this was common for the Church during the War, but I do not have any sources handy.

Take it as you will, but I consider that to be accurate for what the show stated. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

[ETA] P&T state that they wrote a bunch of letters to several authorities from the Catholic Church to come on the show and talk, and the received refusals in return.

 

[GreNME]

As to the charge of holocaust denial, I find a reference to D. Kranzler, Thy Brother's Blood, Mes. Publications, 1987, p. 279. from Wikipedia.

In Slovakia, for example, Archbishop Karol Kmetko responded to a Jewish plea of assistance in March 1942 with the words, "You shall not merely be deported. You shall be killed..And this will be your punishment for your killing of our saviour." - Source

This is one reference to a Holocaust-denying Bishop, though his viewpoint was later rendered defunct by the Second Vatican Council during the early-mid 60s. He was excommunicated in 1988, and the excommunication was later lifted in 2009.

Perhaps it is a weaker example, but there was a time that Holocaust denial was deemed "fair" for Catholic officials, considering it took until 1962 for the Church to officially come out and state what their position on the Holocaust was, and even more so, that it took another 26 years for them to excommunicate the Bishop for his antisemitic views. There are mixed reports that say this was common for the Church during the War, but I do not have any sources handy.

Try Constantine's Sword by James Carroll. Plenty of examples of the RCC taking the deicide route in many periods in history to justify Jews dying. However, that's still not church-sanctioned Holocaust denial.

 

[Vermonter]

Try Constantine's Sword by James Carroll. Plenty of examples of the RCC taking the deicide route in many periods in history to justify Jews dying. However, that's still not church-sanctioned Holocaust denial.

This is what I see from the episode, directly quoted:
"Which is why despite their modest numbers the pope and his crew can afford to dedicate every moment of every blessed day to making life hell for billions to the rest of us, from the crusades to the inquisition, from condoning salvery to denying the holocaust, for nearly 2,000 years, Muslims, Jews, gays, women, Africans, children, the poor, and oh, what he hell, let's give an Obama-style shoutout at the very end of the list to non-believers, have all borne the brunt of the Vatican's irresponsible abuse of it's power."

I think what they -may- be trying to say (and it may just be better to write to P&T and just ask them for that source) is that the Vatican funded those that were actively denying it. I'd like to see a source on denial from the Pope directly.

My thought is that since the excommunication of Bishop Williamson was cancelled in 2009, this would lead one to believe that the Church sanctions such beliefs. However, Pope Benedict has stated that the Bishop must renounce his beliefs of denial. Here is a relevant article from the Washington Post detailing some of the fallout from that reinstatement of the Bishop.

If someone were to find credible information against it, then I'd be happy to take it into consideration. For now, based on what information I've found, I'd side with P&T on this one. My reason? If the chuch reinstated the Bishop even though he hasn't renounced his views, to me that means the church (and thus the Pope) tolerates his views.

 

[GreNME]

I think what they -may- be trying to say (and it may just be better to write to P&T and just ask them for that source) is that the Vatican funded those that were actively denying it. I'd like to see a source on denial from the Pope directly.

Which pope? John Paul III actually went pretty far in not only speaking out against the injustices of the Holocaust, but before he was pope during the Nazi occupation of Poland he actually was writing fake baptism records for Jews to protect them from being taken (this also is discussed in Constantine's Sword, by the way). During his time as pope more strides were taken to heal the rifts between the Catholic and Jewish world than in the whole millennium prior (which mostly consisted of disregard or accusatory speech). Now, the greatest criticism toward Pius XII is that he didn't openly speak out against the Nazis, but in terms of sanctioning or denying the Holocaust there is little evidence in support of such a thing. There's plenty of evidence of inaction and a lack of desire to get involved with the politics of the war, but historians would be very interested indeed of evidence that Pius XII was actively favoring the Nazi activities or sanctioned anything to do with the Holocaust.

I'm not Catholic, never have been, and am both happily and completely areligious. However, I saw plenty of rhetorical dishonesty throughout the P&T segment on Catholicism, much like I saw a number of flaws in their "bible" episode in terms of accuracy. Penn and Teller do this often, dipping into hyperbole and half-truths where going into the intellectually honest and actual details would either be not as entertaining or would take longer than the time slot they're allowed to make their show. It's not that I disagree with the conclusion in the beginning of the episode-- that Catholicism is essentially BS-- but the episode really wasn't about Catholicism in any real sense. It was about Guzzanti feeling discriminated against and a few vague references to the sexual abuse scandal and some historical references that were vague or not-quite-accurate regarding Catholicism's fairly easy-to-research and blemished history.

Frankly, P&T chose to stick to hyperbole over substance in this episode, and it was transparent to the point of being easy to spot mistakes. I consider that a bad thing for promotion of skeptical and critical thought.

 

[Vermonter]

Which pope? John Paul III actually went pretty far in not only speaking out against the injustices of the Holocaust, but before he was pope during the Nazi occupation of Poland he actually was writing fake baptism records for Jews to protect them from being taken (this also is discussed in Constantine's Sword, by the way). During his time as pope more strides were taken to heal the rifts between the Catholic and Jewish world than in the whole millennium prior (which mostly consisted of disregard or accusatory speech). Now, the greatest criticism toward Pius XII is that he didn't openly speak out against the Nazis, but in terms of sanctioning or denying the Holocaust there is little evidence in support of such a thing. There's plenty of evidence of inaction and a lack of desire to get involved with the politics of the war, but historians would be very interested indeed of evidence that Pius XII was actively favoring the Nazi activities or sanctioned anything to do with the Holocaust.

I'm not Catholic, never have been, and am both happily and completely areligious. However, I saw plenty of rhetorical dishonesty throughout the P&T segment on Catholicism, much like I saw a number of flaws in their "bible" episode in terms of accuracy. Penn and Teller do this often, dipping into hyperbole and half-truths where going into the intellectually honest and actual details would either be not as entertaining or would take longer than the time slot they're allowed to make their show. It's not that I disagree with the conclusion in the beginning of the episode-- that Catholicism is essentially BS-- but the episode really wasn't about Catholicism in any real sense. It was about Guzzanti feeling discriminated against and a few vague references to the sexual abuse scandal and some historical references that were vague or not-quite-accurate regarding Catholicism's fairly easy-to-research and blemished history.

Frankly, P&T chose to stick to hyperbole over substance in this episode, and it was transparent to the point of being easy to spot mistakes. I consider that a bad thing for promotion of skeptical and critical thought.

It seems as if most of the criticism and vitriol is against Pope Benedict XVI; he was the focus during the episode. And if you had actually read the Reuters article I posted a link to, you'd see what theactual issue was about. It wasn't that "she was discriminated against", they were actually trying to get her thrown in jail.

"A Rome prosecutor suspected the comments broke a law protecting the honour and dignity of the leader of 1.1 billion Roman Catholics under a 1929 Italian treaty with the Vatican."

"Among the Lateran Treaties that established Vatican City as a sovereign state within Italy, the treaty provided that offences against the pontiff be punished the same way as offences against Italy's president.

Offences against the president can be punished with five years in prison."

Again, source.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

P&T make a couple important points in the program. The dogmatic opposition to condoms while claiming to be pro-life is a valid issue. Sitting on billions in treasures mostly accumulated from donations much of which came from the poor giving to the church, and seeking legal protection from liability for pedophile priests even when the Catholic hierarchy passed the perps on from parish to parish is another valid issue.

 

[kuroyume0161]

P&T make a couple important points in the program. The dogmatic opposition to condoms while claiming to be pro-life is a valid issue. Sitting on billions in treasures mostly accumulated from donations much of which came from the poor giving to the church, and seeking legal protection from liability for pedophile priests even when the Catholic hierarchy passed the perps on from parish to parish is another valid issue.

It's not just the poor congregation 'giving' to the church. Churches push tithing as a form of expected contribution to support the church (in its efforts, for the clergy, and so on). But it is still more about expecting congregations to put in the basket than voluntarily giving. For instance, I gave money towards the Haiti relief effort. I wasn't expected to do so. This is the difference between 'giving' and 'tithing', imho.

 

[GreNME]

It seems as if most of the criticism and vitriol is against Pope Benedict XVI; he was the focus during the episode. And if you had actually read the Reuters article I posted a link to, you'd see what theactual issue was about. It wasn't that "she was discriminated against", they were actually trying to get her thrown in jail.

Yes, I know Benedict XVI (Ratzinger) was the main focus, but again any shred of evidence about Holocaust denial or support was completely absent from the program, while the accusations were pretty strong. If anything, not focusing on Pius XII regarding the Nazi regime was a mistake, because there are lots of valid criticisms there.

As for Guzzanti, did you read the link you gave clearly? Try this link, or maybe this one. "They" weren't trying to do anything, an Italian prosecutor had been trying to use an old Italian law to lash out at Guzzanti's political speech that was insulting the Pope and many others (including Berlusconi). The whole "they" thing is conspiracist thinking-- though it does reflect poorly on the somewhat-fascist-in-certain-ways methodologies of certain wings of Italian politics, I would agree.

The pedophile stuff: spot on. If you want to nail the RCC to the wall, their cover-ups and handling of the child abuse issue has been abhorrent. Hours of programming and tons of evidence wouldn't sufficiently cover how bad they've been.

The anti-condom stuff: not inaccurate, but a bit heavy on the hyperbole. The fact is that the RCC has spread lies about the efficacy of condoms, and this deserves plenty of attention to display their woo.

Holocaust: non-starter. Better historical critics than P&T have tried to nail the church down on this issue, and the biggest criticism that is evident is a distinct inaction by the church. Focusing on past liturgical language like the "pernicious Jews" thing (that was removed by John Paul III) would have held more weight (and again could be found in Carroll's Constantine's Sword).

Why not point out that the RCC for a long time had what basically amounted to a harem for the Pope, or a fund that was used to pay for the bastards it produced (there's actual historical evidence for this)? Why not point out that for centuries the RCC kept itself as the gatekeeper of literacy in most of Europe, with all the benefits that go along with such a position? Why not point out the RCC's history of anti-intellectualism going back at least to the Enlightenment and Renaissance (no, instead the over-simplified Galileo case is used)? Why spend nearly half the show on Guzzanti's case instead of using the loads of things that are supportable with even some basic research that could have shown the church for the obvious pyramid scheme that practically all churches are anyway?

 

[Vermonter]

You know, I don't know. I can't speak for either of the two. Maybe they used the Guzzanti case as an example of Vatican influence on politics and justice? It is a sub-30 minute show, so they wouldn't be able to cram everything into the episode. I'm not really sure what you want me to say about it.

 

[INRM]

I think the whole thing they were both going for was to get a lot of shock out of the audiences watching the show.

 

[GreNME]

You know, I don't know. I can't speak for either of the two. Maybe they used the Guzzanti case as an example of Vatican influence on politics and justice? It is a sub-30 minute show, so they wouldn't be able to cram everything into the episode. I'm not really sure what you want me to say about it.

I don't expect you to say anything in particular. I've pointed out how the Guzzanti case is not "the Vatican" doing anything (what part of "Italian prosecutor" did you miss?), and their lack of evidence for anything regarding the Holocaust claims was pointed out. The show spent more than half the time slot on Guzzanti, which turns out to be nothing like the way it was described on the show.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's not just the poor congregation 'giving' to the church. Churches push tithing as a form of expected contribution to support the church (in its efforts, for the clergy, and so on). But it is still more about expecting congregations to put in the basket than voluntarily giving. For instance, I gave money towards the Haiti relief effort. I wasn't expected to do so. This is the difference between 'giving' and 'tithing', imho.

The immorality of the church is especially visible in Latin America where the poor sit on church steps begging while inside the most lavish art and precious metals drip off every wall and column.

 

[hgc]

Try Constantine's Sword by James Carroll. Plenty of examples of the RCC taking the deicide route in many periods in history to justify Jews dying. However, that's still not church-sanctioned Holocaust denial.

Interesting topic (militaristic Christianity) but poorly made documentary (the movie version). I can't say how the book is, but if it's anything like the movie, I recommend finding other sources.

 

[ZirconBlue]

Which pope? John Paul III actually went pretty far in not only speaking out against the injustices of the Holocaust. . .

Are you. . . from the future?

 

[thaiboxerken]

Since you keep ignoring the part about P&Ts' lies, don't bother. I don't care about cultists' opinions.

If someone isn't in the RCC, they're a cultist?

 

[fullflavormenthol]

South Park did a episode about Donahue called "Fantastic Easter Special" if you have a faster enough connection you can watch the full episode here:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/guide/1105/

YES! I loved that episode.