Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[zooterkin]

I invite people to read it and make up their own minds about whether or not it was a prophecy of Jesus' coming crucifixion a thousand years later. If you don't believe it is a fulfilled prophecy so be it.

People also pointed out why the reasons it is sometimes taken to be a prophecy are ill-founded; those are more than opinions.


You seem to be using the 'so be it' phrase a lot; shall we take that as a sign that you are conceding the point?

 

[Mojo]

What's the independent evidence that Jesus did say those words?

Hang on, DOC would have to post on-topic to give you that.

 

[zooterkin]

30 to go. The secret weapon is prepared. Poast moar.

30 what? Or was it the wrong thread?

 

[zooterkin]

Hang on, DOC would have to post on-topic to give you that.

Are you saying you don't believe in miracles?

 

[Akhenaten]

30 what? Or was it the wrong thread?

30 more posts and joobz will be able to say, "My 1000+ posts in this thread . . ."

I have prepared the Holy Fallacy Grenade of Antidoc for the occasion.

 

[DOC]

doc, it seems like you have no answer to the facts of my post. why not comment on the fact that the psalm doesnt sat pierced?

.

I've already given an answer from the Jews for Jesus website:

From the article titled: In Psalm 22:16 is "they pierced" a Christian mistranslation?

"What we have is the Septuagint translation which translated the Hebrew text as "pierced" and the Masoretic or standard text which has it as "like a lion."

Notice that the translation of the Hebrew is "pierced" in the Greek Septuagint which was completed in the centuries before Jesus was crucified. Therefore the charges made by some counter-missionaries, that fundamentalist Christian interpreters "twist" the meaning of the Hebrew Bible, rings hollow."

http://jewsforjesus.org/answers/prophecy/pierced

or how about the fact that if it is prophecy, it shows jesus as a man and not god...

Jesus (part of the Godhead) was a human while on earth. How can we expect God to understand human suffering if he never experienced it as Jesus did. How can we expect God to understand what it is like to be rejected or forsaken if He never experienced as Jesus did.

 

[Think_Tank]

30 more posts and joobz will be able to say, "My 1000+ posts in this thread . . ."

I have prepared the Holy Fallacy Grenade of Antidoc for the occasion.

Antidoc...

Just make sure you count to 5 3...

 

[Akhenaten]

<snip mistranslation>

Jesus (part of the Godhead) was a human while on earth.

Evidence for this claim?

How can we expect God to understand human suffering if he never experienced it as Jesus did.

WE don't.

How can we expect God to understand what it is like to be rejected or forsaken if He never experienced as Jesus did.

WE don't.

 

[zooterkin]

.

I've already given an answer from the Jews for Jesus website:

From the article titled: In Psalm 22:16 is "they pierced" a Christian mistranslation?

"What we have is the Septuagint translation which translated the Hebrew text as "pierced" and the Masoretic or standard text which has it as "like a lion."

Notice that the translation of the Hebrew is "pierced" in the Greek Septuagint which was completed in the centuries before Jesus was crucified. Therefore the charges made by some counter-missionaries, that fundamentalist Christian interpreters "twist" the meaning of the Hebrew Bible, rings hollow."

So all they're doing is putting the mistranslation back a few centuries. How does that make it any more valid?

 

[Akhenaten]

Antidoc...

Just make sure you count to 5 3...

Sshhh! It's a surprise.

Our main weapon is surprse. Surprise and fear.

Wait . . .

 

[Lothian]

.

I've already given an answer from the Jews for Jesus website:

From the article titled: In Psalm 22:16 is "they pierced" a Christian mistranslation?

"What we have is the Septuagint translation which translated the Hebrew text as "pierced" and the Masoretic or standard text which has it as "like a lion."

Notice that the translation of the Hebrew is "pierced" in the Greek Septuagint which was completed in the centuries before Jesus was crucified. Therefore the charges made by some counter-missionaries, that fundamentalist Christian interpreters "twist" the meaning of the Hebrew Bible, rings hollow."

Doc, you missed the point. The authoritive text has it at lion. It does not matter if If Jews for Jesus are right and it is a Greek mistranslation, the fact is that the psalm is nothing to do with crucifixion.

 

[Lothian]

Jesus (part of the Godhead) was a human while on earth. How can we expect God to understand human suffering if he never experienced it as Jesus did. How can we expect God to understand what it is like to be rejected or forsaken if He never experienced as Jesus did.

Did Jesus masturbate?

How can we expect God to understand masturbation if he never experienced it as Jesus? How can we expect God to understand what it is like to masturbate if He never experienced as Jesus did?

 

[Akhenaten]

Did Jesus masturbate?

How can we expect God to understand masturbation if he never experienced it as Jesus? How can we expect God to understand what it is like to masturbate if He never experienced as Jesus did?

 

[Paulhoff]

Did Jesus masturbate?

How can we expect God to understand masturbation if he never experienced it as Jesus? How can we expect God to understand what it is like to masturbate if He never experienced as Jesus did?

Jesus didn't have a penis, why would he need one, he didn't use it.

Paul

 

[RoboTimbo]

Evidence for this claim?





WE don't.





WE don't.

Apropos of nothing in this thread but it isn't like there's been any evidence presented so ALL of the posts have been off topic:

Happy Australia Day, Akhenaten!

 

[Akhenaten]

Thank you.

 

[joobz]

.

I've already given an answer from the Jews for Jesus website:

From the article titled: In Psalm 22:16 is "they pierced" a Christian mistranslation?

"What we have is the Septuagint translation which translated the Hebrew text as "pierced" and the Masoretic or standard text which has it as "like a lion."

Notice that the translation of the Hebrew is "pierced" in the Greek Septuagint which was completed in the centuries before Jesus was crucified. Therefore the charges made by some counter-missionaries, that fundamentalist Christian interpreters "twist" the meaning of the Hebrew Bible, rings hollow."

http://jewsforjesus.org/answers/prophecy/pierced

DOC, it takes more to make an argument than just quoting a website. When I proved that the original text was "like a lion", I included the actual Hebrew line and went further by going to Hebrew to English dictionaries to confirm that "ari" does mean lion.

Now you made a link to a website that claims "kaaru" (which was a misstranslation) means "pierced". Please prove this to me.

because I have reason to suspect that this is complete nonsense.
from a blog post on the subject.
http://soldiersrantings.blogspot.com/2008/01/kaari.html

Moshe Rosen, founder of Jews for Jesus (blek), argues that it is supposed to be pierced, and that the word is actually supposed to be kaaru (kaf, alef, raish, vav), and not ka'ari (kaf, alef, raish, yod). After all, yod and vav look similar to each other. But anyone who knows anything about the Hebrew language well tell you that not only does kaaru not translate to pierced as many evangelists insist, kaaru isn't even a real word!
There is a similar word, karu (kaf, raish, vav). But this doesn't translate to pierced either.

In fact, if it is to translate to pierced, the Hebrew texts always use the word daqar or ratza.

Karu means "to Dig". It takes a rather significant stretch of the imagination to have Dig equate as "pierce".

And indeed, modern biblical scholars think both "like a lion" and "pierced" are wrong translations.

I thought this was an excellent finding on the web.
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2005-April/023146.html

Definitely "in dispute." The translation of that verse has long been a
debated issue in the interpretation of Psalm 22. The MT does read כארי ידי
ורגלי = ka'ari yaday veraglay, literally, "like a lion my hands and feet."
Since this phrase does not make good sense, there has been a longstanding
practice of emending כארי = ka'ari to the verbal form כרו = karu, understood
to be a 3rd person plural form of the verb כרה I = karah I, "to dig." (The
emendation is reasonable; it's not unusual to get an aleph where one doesn't
belong, and vav/yodh graphic confusion is common.) Then "to dig" is
translated/interpreted as "to pierce" (which it karah I doesn't mean in any
of its [other] attested appearances) and then you have "the Jesus
connection."

A very important contribution to this debate was made by J. J. M. Roberts,
"A New Root for an Old Crux, Ps. XXII 17c," Vetus Testamentum 23.2 (1973)
247-252. (Please remember that in many psalms, the traditional English
numbering is one verse off from the traditional Hebrew numbering, such that
the Hebrew verse numbers are often one step "higher" than the English
numbers. That is the case here; in Hebrew, the verse in question is numbered
as v. 17.) In brief, Roberts surveys the various possibilities, weighing
each one with his characteristic good sense. In the end, Roberts agrees with
the emendation to karu, but does not see it as an instance of karah I "to
dig." Rather, Roberts proposes that we should recognize here a previously
unrecognized root, karah V "to be short[ened], shrunken, shriveled" cognate
with Syriac and Akkadian karu, "to be short[ened]." In Akkadian, this root
is used in medical diagnostic texts to describe illnesses that disfigure the
hands and/or feet. Thus Roberts translates Psalm 22:17c "My hands and feet
are shriveled."

This is the reason why the NRSV states "my hands and feet are shrivled".


Again DOC, this all just shows that your prophecy is built upon a house of cards. One that simply doesn't stand up to evaluation when one is being honest.

.
Jesus (part of the Godhead) was a human while on earth. How can we expect God to understand human suffering if he never experienced it as Jesus did. How can we expect God to understand what it is like to be rejected or forsaken if He never experienced as Jesus did.

Can you show me where in Psalm 22 it talks about a godhead, and only the human form of the godhead come to earth is suffering?

 

[joobz]

30 what? Or was it the wrong thread?

30 more posts and joobz will be able to say, "My 1000+ posts in this thread . . ."



I have prepared the Holy Fallacy Grenade of Antidoc for the occasion.

Then, I'll have more evidence that Thomas Jefferson was a crime fighting cyberninja with a laser penis!

 

[TSR]

How can we expect God to understand human suffering if he never experienced it as Jesus did. How can we expect God to understand what it is like to be rejected or forsaken if He never experienced as Jesus did.

.
Isn't your god supposed to be omniscient?
.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Jesus (part of the Godhead) was a human while on earth. How can we expect God to understand human suffering if he never experienced it as Jesus did. How can we expect God to understand what it is like to be rejected or forsaken if He never experienced as Jesus did.

You have said this before, and I have asked you before: according to you, God is (among other things) omniscient and omnipresent. How could an omniscient, omnipresent being NOT know and understand everything? If God is omnipresent, he's in my mind while I'm suffering. If he's omniscient, he knows what it feels like.

I wish you would at least get a consistent story.