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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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DOC said:
What is the right translation from Hebrew?
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Doc, I recommend that you read Joobz's 968 posts in this thread. You will learn lots. I have.

joobz said:
Yes. Psalm 22 is quite interesting in regards to the story.
Obviously, first and for most, Mathew 27:46, where jesus says:
"My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" is a reference to the first line of psalm 22. This has been the source for the claim that this psalm is a prophecy of Jesus.

Interestingly, it has the following implications (not mutually exclusive)
1.) Psalm 22 clearly is written in the first person by a follower of god. Nowhere in the text of Psalm 22 does it suggest that the speaker is, in fact, god. But is merely one who is singled out and beaten upon by the wicked people surrounding him. The Psalm speaks of glory to come, regardless of the strife being observed today. That one day, the Lord's kingdom will be everywhere. that the "The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever." (inherit the earth, anyone?)

2.) it was a clearly intentional allusion in matthew. Whether or not this allusion was intentional by the author of matthew or by (in fact) jesus, is unkown. NO extrabiblical account exists of Jesus' words, so we can't know it is a fabrication. What we do know is that who ever made the allusion made it expressly with the idea that the speaker of the words (Why hast thou forsaken me) considered himself a man and not god.


So, if we do accept the idea that the psalm is prophecy, and prophecy fulfilled, christians must accept that this prophecy states Jesus was a man and not god.


But I do not believe that. It seems to me another example of the Jesus narrative being of redemption and the eminent coming of god. Remember that Christianity emerged from Jewish apocalyptic cults. Cults that would be familiar with passages like Psalm 22, which is incredibly apocalyptic in it's statements. The author of Matthew most likely made the allusion to emphasize the idea that god will win in the end and his followers will be the big winners, which is sort of the point of Psalm 22.


ETA:
Interestingly, a Jewish translation of the Jewish Psalm 22 states:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Psalms22.html
Psalm 22:17 " For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet."


Interesting how the bible translation has lacks the "like a lion" part.
The original Hebrew text states:
יז כִּי סְבָבוּנִי, כְּלָבִים: עֲדַת מְרֵעִים, הִקִּיפוּנִי; כָּאֲרִי, יָדַי וְרַגְלָי.

Notice the word:
כָּאֲרִי,
which translates as aryan, or like a lion

go one step further from:
http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/jew.php

ARI (1) אֲרִי m Hebrew
Means "lion" in Hebrew.


From another site we are given a bit more clarity of what this states:
"In Hebrew, the verse reads karah ari yad regal. Literally, mauled lion hands feet. Or, the lion mauled my hands and feet. The KJV, and virtually all Christian translations, completely ignores the word ari. It’s easy to see why they do that – because it significantly alters the context of the verse. If we’re talking about lions mauling the Psalmist rather than the Psalmist being pierced by some unknown entity, then it’s clear it doesn’t refer to Jesus. Fabricating messianic prophecy via incorrect translation is a modus operandi of Christians today and has been throughout history."
http://shemaantimissionary.tripod.com/id18.html


Do you not think it odd that the KJV translation of the bible completely omits this "like a lion" part?
Click to expand...
 
joobz said:
Yes. Psalm 22 is quite interesting in regards to the story.
Obviously, first and for most, Mathew 27:46, where jesus says:
"My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" is a reference to the first line of psalm 22. This has been the source for the claim that this psalm is a prophecy of Jesus.

Interestingly, it has the following implications (not mutually exclusive)
1.) Psalm 22 clearly is written in the first person by a follower of god. Nowhere in the text of Psalm 22 does it suggest that the speaker is, in fact, god. But is merely one who is singled out and beaten upon by the wicked people surrounding him. The Psalm speaks of glory to come, regardless of the strife being observed today. That one day, the Lord's kingdom will be everywhere. that the "The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever." (inherit the earth, anyone?)

2.) it was a clearly intentional allusion in matthew. Whether or not this allusion was intentional by the author of matthew or by (in fact) jesus, is unkown. NO extrabiblical account exists of Jesus' words, so we can't know it is a fabrication. What we do know is that who ever made the allusion made it expressly with the idea that the speaker of the words (Why hast thou forsaken me) considered himself a man and not god.


So, if we do accept the idea that the psalm is prophecy, and prophecy fulfilled, christians must accept that this prophecy states Jesus was a man and not god.


But I do not believe that. It seems to me another example of the Jesus narrative being of redemption and the eminent coming of god. Remember that Christianity emerged from Jewish apocalyptic cults. Cults that would be familiar with passages like Psalm 22, which is incredibly apocalyptic in it's statements. The author of Matthew most likely made the allusion to emphasize the idea that god will win in the end and his followers will be the big winners, which is sort of the point of Psalm 22...
Click to expand...

Thank you for you opinion about Psalm 22 (aka The Crucifixion Psalm).
 
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DOC said:
Thank you for you opinion about Psalm 22 (aka The Crucifixion Psalm).
Click to expand...
Non informative post number (insert DOC's post count here).


Psalm 22 is only the crucifixion psalm if you are a lying liar who lies a lot. Are you a lying liar who lies a lot?
 
zooterkin said:
And your opinion on that post about Psalm 22 (wrongly called The Crucifixion Psalm) is?
Click to expand...

I used a lot of words in my post, so it is unlikely DOC read it. I don't mind. His nonsensical response to it will only make him look more intellectually dishonest to those who actually read the two posts.
 
joobz said:
I used a lot of words in my post, so it is unlikely DOC read it. I don't mind. His nonsensical response to it will only make him look more intellectually dishonest to those who actually read the two posts.
Click to expand...

I find that very hard to believe; I don't think that's possible.
 
joobz said:
Yes. Psalm 22 is quite interesting in regards to the story.
Obviously, first and for most, Mathew 27:46, where jesus says:
"My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" is a reference to the first line of psalm 22. This has been the source for the claim that this psalm is a prophecy of Jesus.

Interestingly, it has the following implications (not mutually exclusive)
1.) Psalm 22 clearly is written in the first person by a follower of god. Nowhere in the text of Psalm 22 does it suggest that the speaker is, in fact, god. But is merely one who is singled out and beaten upon by the wicked people surrounding him. The Psalm speaks of glory to come, regardless of the strife being observed today. That one day, the Lord's kingdom will be everywhere. that the "The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever." (inherit the earth, anyone?)

2.) it was a clearly intentional allusion in matthew. Whether or not this allusion was intentional by the author of matthew or by (in fact) jesus, is unkown. NO extrabiblical account exists of Jesus' words, so we can't know it is a fabrication. What we do know is that who ever made the allusion made it expressly with the idea that the speaker of the words (Why hast thou forsaken me) considered himself a man and not god.


So, if we do accept the idea that the psalm is prophecy, and prophecy fulfilled, christians must accept that this prophecy states Jesus was a man and not god.


But I do not believe that. It seems to me another example of the Jesus narrative being of redemption and the eminent coming of god. Remember that Christianity emerged from Jewish apocalyptic cults. Cults that would be familiar with passages like Psalm 22, which is incredibly apocalyptic in it's statements. The author of Matthew most likely made the allusion to emphasize the idea that god will win in the end and his followers will be the big winners, which is sort of the point of Psalm 22...
Click to expand...

Thank you for your opinion about Psalm 22 (aka The Crucifixion Psalm).

And author Ralph Muncaster has the opinion that when Jesus said My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" (the first line of psalm 22) perhaps he was letting future generations know of the prophecy that was about to be fulfilled.
 
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DOC said:
Thank you for your opinion about Psalm 22 (aka The Crucifixion Psalm).
Click to expand...

And your opinion on that post about Psalm 22 (wrongly called The Crucifixion Psalm) is?

DOC said:
And author Ralph Muncaster has the opinion that when Jesus said My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" (the first line of psalm 22) perhaps he was letting future generations know of the prophecy that was about to be fulfilled.
Click to expand...

What's the independent evidence that Jesus did say those words? Where's your evidence that Psalm 22 is a prophecy?
 
joobz said:
I used a lot of words in my post, so it is unlikely DOC read it. I don't mind. His nonsensical response to it will only make him look more intellectually dishonest to those who actually read the two posts.
Click to expand...

Thank you for another opinion.

zooterkin said:
I find that very hard to believe; I don't think that's possible.
Click to expand...

And thanks for your no information opinion.
 
zooterkin said:
What's the independent evidence that Jesus did say those words?
Click to expand...
And what independent evidence do you have from someone that was not a member of the Continental Congress that Thomas Jefferson actually wrote the Declaration of Independence.
 
doc, it seems like you have no answer to the facts of my post. why not comment on the fact that the psalm doesnt sat pierced? or how about the fact that if it is prophecy, it shows jesus as a man and not god....

well, addressing those points would require actual thought, so......
 
DOC said:
joobz said:
I used a lot of words in my post, so it is unlikely DOC read it. I don't mind. His nonsensical response to it will only make him look more intellectually dishonest to those who actually read the two posts.
Click to expand...


Thank you for another opinion.
Click to expand...


Ooh, psychic!



DOC said:
zooterkin said:
I find that very hard to believe; I don't think that's possible.
Click to expand...


And thanks for your no information opinion.
Click to expand...


I found it informative.
 
DOC said:
And what independent evidence do you have from someone that was not a member of the Continental Congress that Thomas Jefferson actually wrote the Declaration of Independence.
Click to expand...

Irrelevant. This thread is about " Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth." My question was exactly on topic.

However, you could learn a bit by studying what is known about the Founding Fathers of your country, and what we do and don't know about them. Their lives are independently documented, in many cases by contemporaries, and your country's archives have, I believe, the original documents in many cases. Compare that with the bible, when we don't know exactly when it was written, although it's some years after the events recorded, nor by whom. There is also little to no corroborating independent evidence of the supernatural occurrences.

Are you now beginning to doubt the life and works of your erstwhile hero, Jefferson?
 
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zooterkin said:
Where's your evidence that Psalm 22 is a prophecy?
Click to expand...
I invite people to read it and make up their own minds about whether or not it was a prophecy of Jesus' coming crucifixion a thousand years later. If you don't believe it is a fulfilled prophecy so be it.
 
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