Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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kmortis said:
To be fair, the concept of a historic Jesus (that is a man, named Jesus, living in the middle east, during the time of the Roman occupation, that was an itinerant preacher) is not an extrodinary claim. There's enough evidence that there were itinerant preachers, and Jesus was a very common name at the time.

That Jesus, as presented in the Bible, existed. THAT'S the extraordinary claim. To prove that he was the Son of God, you first have to prove the existance of God. However, since God is said to exist outside the physical reality that we know, you cannot prove his existance, so you're stuck. It'll take a Mount Everest of truely extraordinary evidence to prove that one.
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Very true. You could stand in the market place in downtown Jerusalem on market day and call out Jesus, come here, and you would have at least 20-30 Jesus' answer you. :p
 
DOC said:
An uninformed reader of Psalm 22 might suspect that the writer is knowingly describing a crucifixion. The facts prove otherwise, however. This method of punishment was not invented until the sixth century B.C., long after any plausible date for Psalm 22 (9). So what we have in this psalm is supernatural knowledge of the future—real prophecy, in other words."
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Lothian said:
Crucifiction is mentioned in the Code of Hammurabi (c. 1700 BCE)

Also Crucifixion also happened before Moses came to Egypt, during the Amenophis IV (Akhenaten):eek:
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Impalement is not the same thing as crucifixion, and those that talk of crucifixion in your source come from the Quran which was written around the 6th century AD

ETA: Impalement is not piercing the hands and feet.
 
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DOC said:
Impalement is not the same thing as crucifixion, and those that talk of crucifixion in your source come from the Quran which was written around the 6th century AD

ETA: Impalement is not piercing the hands and feet.
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No, it gives earlier Egyptian sources.

Your prophesy does not talk about piercing the hands and feet, see joobz's post.

Talking of prophecy. I am going to post this every time you role the dice.

4474b57a15ee75a2.gif
 
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DOC said:
Lothian said:
Crucifiction is mentioned in the Code of Hammurabi (c. 1700 BCE)

Also Crucifixion also happened before Moses came to Egypt, during the Amenophis IV (Akhenaten):eek:
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Impalement is not the same thing as crucifixion, and those that talk of crucifixion in your source come from the Quran which was written around the 6th century AD

ETA: Impalement is not piercing the hands and feet.
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What are you doing way back there? Please try to keep up with the experienced posters, DOC.
 
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DOC said:
Impalement is not the same thing as crucifixion, and those that talk of crucifixion in your source come from the Quran which was written around the 6th century AD

ETA: Impalement is not piercing the hands and feet.
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What about impalement or piercing?
"A pack of dogs surrounds me, a gang of villains closing in on me as if to hack off my hands and my feet. "
Psalm 22:16
New Jerusalem Bible
http://www.catholic.org/bible/
 
DOC said:
Impalement is not the same thing as crucifixion, and those that talk of crucifixion in your source come from the Quran which was written around the 6th century AD

ETA: Impalement is not piercing the hands and feet.
Click to expand...

Lothian said:
No, it gives earlier Egyptian sources.

Your prophesy does not talk about piercing the hands and feet, see joobz's post.

Talking of prophecy. I am going to post this every time you role the dice.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/4474b57a15ee75a2.gif[/qimg]
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Psalm 22:16-18

For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
 
DOC said:
Psalm 22:16-18

For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
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What about it?
12 Many bulls are encircling me, wild bulls of Bashan closing in on me.
13 Lions ravening and roaring open their jaws at me.
14 My strength is trickling away, my bones are all disjointed, my heart has turned to wax, melting inside me.
15 My mouth is dry as earthenware, my tongue sticks to my jaw. You lay me down in the dust of death.
16 A pack of dogs surrounds me, a gang of villains closing in on me as if to hack off my hands and my feet.
17 I can count every one of my bones, while they look on and gloat;
18 they divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
http://www.catholic.org/bible/
 
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DOC said:
Impalement is not the same thing as crucifixion, and those that talk of crucifixion in your source come from the Quran which was written around the 6th century AD

ETA: Impalement is not piercing the hands and feet.
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psalms 22 doesn't state crucifixion at all. It requires a false translation and active imagination to think otherwise.
 
DOC said:
Psalm 22:16-18

For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
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Incorrect translation from hebrew.
 
Wait a second, DOC, you aren't actually trying to argue that Psalm 22 describes a crucifixion?

How does someone who is specifically described as losing all power and is on the ground surrounding by dogs and evil men, who has his hands and feet pierced (or, as in most Hebrew versions -- like the lion) -- which is in complete keeping with the rest of the imagery in the piece since this constitutes an image of loss of power -- turn into a description of crucifixion? You are aware, I assume, that feet were a euphemism for genitalia frequently in Hebrew literature, which works even better as an image of loss of power.

Desperation is an ugly thing to watch.

Or should we spend some time on this Psalm, look at it in detail until you realize that if you think it refers to Jesus, then you have the entirely wrong idea of who Jesus was?

Shall we get back to those other songs of the suffering servant as well?
 
Ichneumonwasp said:
Wait a second, DOC, you aren't actually trying to argue that Psalm 22 describes a crucifixion?

How does someone who is specifically described as losing all power and is on the ground surrounding by dogs and evil men, who has his hands and feet pierced (or, as in most Hebrew versions -- like the lion) -- which is in complete keeping with the rest of the imagery in the piece since this constitutes an image of loss of power -- turn into a description of crucifixion? You are aware, I assume, that feet were a euphemism for genitalia frequently in Hebrew literature, which works even better as an image of loss of power.

Desperation is an ugly thing to watch.

Or should we spend some time on this Psalm, look at it in detail until you realize that if you think it refers to Jesus, then you have the entirely wrong idea of who Jesus was?

Shall we get back to those other songs of the suffering servant as well?
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it's seems clear to me that Matthew was intentionally referencing Psalm22 when he had Jesus say "Why hast thou forsaken me." which is much more indicative with the image of jesus as a man and not a man/god.
 
Speaking of cwucifictions . . .


This is confirmed by the fact that the Gospel did not really preach a god crucified. No one converted thinking they were worshipping a defeated, disgraced god.

To the contrary, from the very beginning the Gospel preached a God crucified and raised to glory. Many a potential convert could find that attractive. Christ was a victorious god receiving the ultimate honor, not a god defeated in humiliation. His crucifixion was only a temporary defeat.

The god actually being worshipped, therefore, was not defeated at all - he lived, and sat on the ultimate heavenly throne, his power attested on earth in the charisma, conviction, and 'miracles' that belief in him inspired).

Not everyone bought it, of course. But many would have. And many did. The crucified Christ was the ultimate hero, who soon would save us all from the awful, corrupt world we despise and can no longer control, while raining down punishment on the wicked elite who seem to us so untouchable.

That this hero had to die at the hands of elite conspirators in order to gain this ultimate power was not unusual--many a god required just such a path, from the Sumerian Inanna, to the Egyptian Osiris, to the Roman Romulus.
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infidels.org


The whole cwucifiction thing has been around for donkey's years. If these Hebrew prophets hadn't heard of it, they should have got out more.
 
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DOC said:
Psalm 22:16-18

For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.
Click to expand...

joobz said:
Incorrect translation from hebrew.
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What is the right translation from Hebrew?
 
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