Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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kmortis said:
To be fair, the concept of a historic Jesus (that is a man, named Jesus, living in the middle east, during the time of the Roman occupation, that was an itinerant preacher) is not an extrodinary claim. There's enough evidence that there were itinerant preachers, and Jesus was a very common name at the time.

That Jesus, as presented in the Bible, existed. THAT'S the extraordinary claim. To prove that he was the Son of God, you first have to prove the existance of God. However, since God is said to exist outside the physical reality that we know, you cannot prove his existance, so you're stuck. It'll take a Mount Everest of truely extraordinary evidence to prove that one.
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Similarly, we have much evidence for jefferson's existence. We do not have evidence for his career as a crime fighting cyber ninja with a laser penis.*


*script in progress.
 
DOC said:
There are many references about Psalm 22 (aka the Crucifixion Psalm) on the net. Here is one that talks of Psalm 22 and other some other prophesies......
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Doc the claim you made for which you are supposed to be providng evidence is "some prophecies seem to predict a crucifixion before that method of death was even known by the prophets."
Six7s is not interested in the prophecies. It is your claim that cricifixion was not known by the prophets, that evidence is requested.
 
DOC said:
There are many references about Psalm 22 (aka the Crucifixion Psalm) on the net. Here is one that talks of Psalm 22 and other some other prophesies.

From the site titled: Fulfilled Prophecy, Jesus Christ, Modern Israel, Armaggedon, The Papacy & Vatican, Early Christians, Hell

He will be forsaken and deserted by His disciples (Zechariah 13:7; Mark 14:50).He will be accused by false witnesses (Psalm 35:11; Matthew 26:59-60). He will be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12). He will be wounded and bruised (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 27:26). He will be hated without cause (Psalm 69:4; John 15:25). He will be struck and spit on (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67). He will be mocked, ridiculed, and rejected (Isaiah 53:3; Matthew 27:27-31 and John 7:5,48). He will collapse from weakness (Psalm 109:24-25; Luke 23:26). He will be taunted with specific words (Psalm 22:6-8; Matthew 27:39-43). People will shake their heads at Him (Psalm 109:25; Matthew 27:39). People will stare at Him (Psalm 22:17; Luke 23:35). He will be executed among sinners (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38). His hands and feet will be pierced (Psalm 22:16; Luke 23:33). He will pray for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34). His friends and family will stand afar off and watch (Psalm 38:11; Luke 23:49). His garments will be divided and won by the casting of lots (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24). He will thirst (Psalm 69:21; John 19:28). He will be given gall and vinegar (Psalm 69:21; Matthew 27:34). He will commit Himself to God (Psalm 31:5; Luke 23:46). His bones will be left unbroken (Psalm 34:20; John 19:33). His heart will rupture (Psalm 22:14; John19:34) His side will be pierced (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34). Darkness will come over the land at midday (Amos 8:9; Matthew 27:45). He will be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60). On the third day after His death, He will be raised from the dead (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) and ascend to heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9). Source: Beyond Belief to Convictions, chapter four, by Josh McDowell and Bob Hostetler.

http://www.latebreakingreality.com/fulfilled-bible-prophecy.html
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debunked.

joobz said:
Yes. Psalm 22 is quite interesting in regards to the story.
Obviously, first and for most, Mathew 27:46, where jesus says:
"My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" is a reference to the first line of psalm 22. This has been the source for the claim that this psalm is a prophecy of Jesus.

Interestingly, it has the following implications (not mutually exclusive)
1.) Psalm 22 clearly is written in the first person by a follower of god. Nowhere in the text of Psalm 22 does it suggest that the speaker is, in fact, god. But is merely one who is singled out and beaten upon by the wicked people surrounding him. The Psalm speaks of glory to come, regardless of the strife being observed today. That one day, the Lord's kingdom will be everywhere. that the "The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever." (inherit the earth, anyone?)

2.) it was a clearly intentional allusion in matthew. Whether or not this allusion was intentional by the author of matthew or by (in fact) jesus, is unkown. NO extrabiblical account exists of Jesus' words, so we can't know it is a fabrication. What we do know is that who ever made the allusion made it expressly with the idea that the speaker of the words (Why hast thou forsaken me) considered himself a man and not god.


So, if we do accept the idea that the psalm is prophecy, and prophecy fulfilled, christians must accept that this prophecy states Jesus was a man and not god.


But I do not believe that. It seems to me another example of the Jesus narrative being of redemption and the eminent coming of god. Remember that Christianity emerged from Jewish apocalyptic cults. Cults that would be familiar with passages like Psalm 22, which is incredibly apocalyptic in it's statements. The author of Matthew most likely made the allusion to emphasize the idea that god will win in the end and his followers will be the big winners, which is sort of the point of Psalm 22.


ETA:
Interestingly, a Jewish translation of the Jewish Psalm 22 states:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Psalms22.html
Psalm 22:17 " For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet."


Interesting how the bible translation has lacks the "like a lion" part.
The original Hebrew text states:
יז כִּי סְבָבוּנִי, כְּלָבִים: עֲדַת מְרֵעִים, הִקִּיפוּנִי; כָּאֲרִי, יָדַי וְרַגְלָי.

Notice the word:
כָּאֲרִי,
which translates as aryan, or like a lion

go one step further from:
http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/jew.php

ARI (1) אֲרִי m Hebrew
Means "lion" in Hebrew.


From another site we are given a bit more clarity of what this states:
"In Hebrew, the verse reads karah ari yad regal. Literally, mauled lion hands feet. Or, the lion mauled my hands and feet. The KJV, and virtually all Christian translations, completely ignores the word ari. It’s easy to see why they do that – because it significantly alters the context of the verse. If we’re talking about lions mauling the Psalmist rather than the Psalmist being pierced by some unknown entity, then it’s clear it doesn’t refer to Jesus. Fabricating messianic prophecy via incorrect translation is a modus operandi of Christians today and has been throughout history."
http://shemaantimissionary.tripod.com/id18.html


Do you not think it odd that the KJV translation of the bible completely omits this "like a lion" part?
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Lothian said:
Doc the claim you made for which you are supposed to be providng evidence is "some prophecies seem to predict a crucifixion before that method of death was even known by the prophets."
Six7s is not interested in the prophecies. It is your claim that cricifixion was not known by the prophets, that evidence is requested.
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it's not even needed. The interpretation of psalm 22 as meaning Crucifixion is nothing more than a post hoc interpretation made upon a faulty translation.
 
Would anyone care to point out to DOC that of all the books of the bible considered to be prophecy by the Jews of Jesus' time, Psalms wasn't one of them? DOC may as well go looking through Proverbs or the Song of Songs for prophecy.

Or an early Spiderman comic book...
 
Hokulele said:
Would anyone care to point out to DOC that of all the books of the bible considered to be prophecy by the Jews of Jesus' time, Psalms wasn't one of them? DOC may as well go looking through Proverbs or the Song of Songs for prophecy.

Or an early Spiderman comic book...
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The Magna Carta prophesied the coming of Jefferson laser penis.
 
DOC said:
There are many references about Psalm 22 (aka the Crucifixion Psalm) on the net. Here is one that talks of Psalm 22 and other some other prophesies.

From the site titled: Fulfilled Prophecy, Jesus Christ, Modern Israel, Armaggedon, The Papacy & Vatican, Early Christians, Hell

He will be forsaken and deserted by His disciples (Zechariah 13:7; Mark 14:50).He will be accused by false witnesses (Psalm 35:11; Matthew 26:59-60). He will be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12). He will be wounded and bruised (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 27:26). He will be hated without cause (Psalm 69:4; John 15:25). He will be struck and spit on (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67). He will be mocked, ridiculed, and rejected (Isaiah 53:3; Matthew 27:27-31 and John 7:5,48). He will collapse from weakness (Psalm 109:24-25; Luke 23:26). He will be taunted with specific words (Psalm 22:6-8; Matthew 27:39-43). People will shake their heads at Him (Psalm 109:25; Matthew 27:39). People will stare at Him (Psalm 22:17; Luke 23:35). He will be executed among sinners (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38). His hands and feet will be pierced (Psalm 22:16; Luke 23:33). He will pray for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34). His friends and family will stand afar off and watch (Psalm 38:11; Luke 23:49). His garments will be divided and won by the casting of lots (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24). He will thirst (Psalm 69:21; John 19:28). He will be given gall and vinegar (Psalm 69:21; Matthew 27:34). He will commit Himself to God (Psalm 31:5; Luke 23:46). His bones will be left unbroken (Psalm 34:20; John 19:33). His heart will rupture (Psalm 22:14; John19:34) His side will be pierced (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34). Darkness will come over the land at midday (Amos 8:9; Matthew 27:45). He will be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60). On the third day after His death, He will be raised from the dead (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) and ascend to heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9). Source: Beyond Belief to Convictions, chapter four, by Josh McDowell and Bob Hostetler.

http://www.latebreakingreality.com/fulfilled-bible-prophecy.html
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Wow!

The closest you get is 'His hands and feet will be pierced (Psalm 22:16)'?

So... that's NO prophecies of crucifixion then, huh?

Wow!
 
Elizabeth I said:
Ahem...Ladies and Gentlemen, this is NOT a yrreg thread.
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kmortis said:
Right. Yrreg threads make sense.
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I'm not sure. Are these appeals to authority?



Word7.jpg
 
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Elizabeth I said:
Ahem...Ladies and Gentlemen, this is NOT a yrreg thread.
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kmortis said:
Right. Yrreg threads make sense.
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Another two posts with zero information.

All I am doing is presenting evidence that supports Thomas Jefferson as a secret crime fighting cyber ninja with a laser penis.

To add support, let's use Abraham Lincoln's own words.
"The principles of Jefferson are the axioms of a free society."--Abraham Lincoln

Would you doubt that Jefferson, who Lincoln said created the axioms of a free society, had a laser penis?
 
joobz said:
Another two posts with zero information.

All I am doing is presenting evidence that supports Thomas Jefferson as a secret crime fighting cyber ninja with a laser penis.

To add support, let's use Abraham Lincoln's own words.
"The principles of Jefferson are the axioms of a free society."--Abraham Lincoln

Would you doubt that Jefferson, who Lincoln said created the axioms of a free society, had a laser penis?
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You forgot to include your post count. How can we take you seriously if we don't know how many posts you've made in this thread?

Ideally, you should also include a sentence that says: "If you don't like my [fill in the blank], so be it."
 
Lucian said:
You forgot to include your post count. How can we take you seriously if we don't know how many posts you've made in this thread?

Ideally, you should also include a sentence that says: "If you don't like my [fill in the blank], so be it."
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That's joobz' secret weapon.

35 more posts and our second-top poster reaches a little milestone in this thread, and will soon be able to deal devastating post-count-quotes at all and sundry (especially sundry).

I have a small award ceremony planned. but it's a secret so if you could keep it just to ourselves for now?

TYIA
 
I have a concern, and I'd like to try addressing it before this thread reaches the 10,000 post mark.

From the last few pages, it appears that DOC has a very highly developed level of devotion to perceived authority. It seems that all it takes to convince him of a notion (admittedly, notions that support his pre-conceived beliefs) is for someone he regards as important to say it. He also seems to think that since this is good enough for him (after all, he already "knows" this stuff to be true), it should be good enough to convince skeptics. I don't think he understands why we reject the arguments.

I wonder if perhaps he does not understand why appeal to authority is regarded as a logical fallacy.


DOC: Please explain, in your own words, why appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.


After this, we can work on appeal to numbers.
 
X said:
DOC: Please explain, in your own words, why appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.


After this, we can work on appeal to numbers.
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I've already tried that. He wears his special blinders when he sees posts like this.
RoboTimbo said:
DOC, please define the following:

Hearsay
Circular Reasoning
Special Pleading

When and where was this logic course that you took and who was the instructor?
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So DOC has 5 things to define now.
 
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