Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Fulcanelli]

Can you point out where the mention of the mushroom is in the Micheli report? It seams that this would be a vital clue in establishing the proper time of death yet I can't find where it is mentioned in either the english translation or the original Italian.

How can you establish TOD from the mushroom when it isn't known what time she ate the mushroom?

 

[Alt+F4]

Someone posted that AK and RS met each other on October 25th, less than a week before the murder. Why were considered "boyfriend and girlfriend"?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Someone posted that AK and RS met each other on October 25th, less than a week before the murder. Why were considered "boyfriend and girlfriend"?

Because Amanda was more or less living with him in his apartment. She was sleeping there with him every night, from the first day they met.

 

[Alt+F4]

Because Amanda was more or less living with him in his apartment. She was sleeping there whith him every night, from the first day they met.

Ah, ok. I think the correct term for it would be f***buddies, but I guess that term isn't media friendly. I'm surprised AK supporters don't bring this up more often. It would make more sense that she would go along with a torture/murder plot with a boyfriend rather than with a stranger (sorry, but in my book someone you have been sleeping with for 5 or 6 days is still a stranger) she knew for less than a week.

 

[Jungle Jim]

Well, what it tells us us firstly she didn't eat the mushroom at her friend's and secondly, she was killed very shortly after eating it...because the mushroom was actually in her esophagus, rather then stomach.

Very shortly if your statement is true. Everything I've read states that food takes just seconds to pass through the esophagus.

 

[Fiona]

Ah, ok. I think the correct term for it would be f***buddies, but I guess that term isn't media friendly. I'm surprised AK supporters don't bring this up more often. It would make more sense that she would go along with a torture/murder plot with a boyfriend rather than with a stranger (sorry, but in my book someone you have been sleeping with for 5 or 6 days is still a stranger) she knew for less than a week.

It is a dilemma for them, perhaps. They face a cultural problem around the way women are portrayed and they have chosen a route: they have decided that the portrayal of Knox as promiscuous is detrimental to her (and they found on a rather curious portrayal of the culture of modern italians living in a university town with a lot of foreign students; but that is an aside). Having decided to portray her as a "good" girl they can hardly then play up the fact she was living with a bloke she hardly knew

 

[Fulcanelli]

Very shortly if your statement is true. Everything I've read states that food takes just seconds to pass through the esophagus.

It does indeed. Therefore, are we to conclude she was killed mere seconds after sticking a mushroom in her mouth and swallowing it? I don't think so. And, considering the nature of the attack, which was a prolonged attack, rather then a fast and furious one, it's almost impossible (unless we are to surmise she was forced to eat a mushroom during the attack...very unlikely).

Therefore, my guess is she ate the mushroom very shortly before the attack and it passed into the stomach. The attack then began. The nature of the attack would have meant there would have been a good deal of gasping and retching, from choking on and swallowing the blood, as well as gasping for air. This most likely served to cause the mushroom to be partially regurgitated , where it then lodged in the esophagus shortly, perhaps even moments, before she expired.

 

[Fiona]

We can speculate about this mushroom but that is really all we can do. I do not think it tells us anything definitive

 

[Fulcanelli]

We can speculate about this mushroom but that is really all we can do. I do not think it tells us anything definitive

And that's why Micheli left it out of his report. Nothing in regard to 'who', 'when', 'why' or 'how' can be determined from it. He only included that evidence that he felt was key in convicting Rudy for sexually aggravated murder, acquitting him of the theft charge and referring Amanda and Raffaele to trial on charges of sexually aggravated murder, fabrication of a crime scene, illegal transportation of a knife, theft and in Amanda's case, criminal slander.

 

[Dan O.]

Did the mushroom really exist?

It shows up in the initial autopsy report and the prosecutor plays it up early on that Meredith may have shared a meal with her killer. But it doesn't seem to go any further except for speculation in the press and one story that the same type of mushrooms were found at Rafaelle's apartment.

Was the type of mushroom ever determined? Was it know to have been cooked or eaten raw? Was it sliced or diced, fresh or canned?

Without further confirmation, it seems that this may have been a false detail inserted in the press release to help weed out false confessions. But that would go against by prior belief that Mignini is an idiot.

 

[Fulcanelli]

It shows up in the initial autopsy report and the prosecutor plays it up early on that Meredith may have shared a meal with her killer. But it doesn't seem to go any further except for speculation in the press and one story that the same type of mushrooms were found at Rafaelle's apartment.

And the key word in that speculation to the press was 'may'. But it wasn't speculation that Raffaele had the same mushrooms in his fridge, that was so. There were also the same mushrooms in the fridge at the cottage.

 

[Jungle Jim]

It does indeed. Therefore, are we to conclude she was killed mere seconds after sticking a mushroom in her mouth and swallowing it? I don't think so. And, considering the nature of the attack, which was a prolonged attack, rather then a fast and furious one, it's almost impossible (unless we are to surmise she was forced to eat a mushroom during the attack...very unlikely).

Therefore, my guess is she ate the mushroom very shortly before the attack and it passed into the stomach. The attack then began. The nature of the attack would have meant there would have been a good deal of gasping and retching, from choking on and swallowing the blood, as well as gasping for air. This most likely served to cause the mushroom to be partially regurgitated , where it then lodged in the esophagus shortly, perhaps even moments, before she expired.

That seems like a reasonable explanation.

 

[Jungle Jim]

We can speculate about this mushroom but that is really all we can do. I do not think it tells us anything definitive

That is true, not only for the mushroom but the case in general. I for one am pretty convinced that AK, RS & RG acted together. What I am still interested in the How and Why. Unless one of the three participants decides to come clean, we are only left with speculation. If we don't wish to speculate then there seems to be little left to discuss in this thread.

 

[Dan O.]

Jungle Jim, which lies convinced you that AK and RS were guilty? The prosecution has zero evidence that they were involved yet a whole town was convinced that they were guilty by 2 years of negative press.

So what was it that convinced you: The story of a cleanup that never happened? Footprints that don't match the accused? A miniscule trace of something on a knife that tested negative for blood but was found to contain Meredith's DNA (if you ignore the real possibility of cross contamination in a lab that wasn't designed for LCN DNA testing)? Mixed DNA on the bra clasp that had to be retreived over a month later that also indicated 2 other males and a female that have never been identified and which the prosecution can only say doesn't rule out RS?

Or was it the confession that the police tricked out of Amanda after hours of interrogation with physical abuse and deprivation of sleep; though not so much a confession as the implanting of false memories in a young girl who immediately corrected the error when she woke up with a clearer head?

Or was it that they got Raffaele to break by planting false stories in the press that they had found Amanda's fingerprint implanted in Meredeth's forehead and had video of Amanda walking past the car park in the skirt she was wearing that evening so that he would change his story and allow that Amanda could have slipped out that night?


Yes, the Monster of Perugia was working overtime on this case and he got his conviction.

 

[Oliebol]

I thought the mushroom turned out to be apple from the apple pie she ate with her friends.

 

[Fiona]

Jungle Jim, which lies convinced you that AK and RS were guilty? The prosecution has zero evidence that they were involved yet a whole town was convinced that they were guilty by 2 years of negative press.

So what was it that convinced you: The story of a cleanup that never happened? Footprints that don't match the accused? A miniscule trace of something on a knife that tested negative for blood but was found to contain Meredith's DNA (if you ignore the real possibility of cross contamination in a lab that wasn't designed for LCN DNA testing)? Mixed DNA on the bra clasp that had to be retreived over a month later that also indicated 2 other males and a female that have never been identified and which the prosecution can only say doesn't rule out RS?

Or was it the confession that the police tricked out of Amanda after hours of interrogation with physical abuse and deprivation of sleep; though not so much a confession as the implanting of false memories in a young girl who immediately corrected the error when she woke up with a clearer head?

Or was it that they got Raffaele to break by planting false stories in the press that they had found Amanda's fingerprint implanted in Meredeth's forehead and had video of Amanda walking past the car park in the skirt she was wearing that evening so that he would change his story and allow that Amanda could have slipped out that night?


Yes, the Monster of Perugia was working overtime on this case and he got his conviction.

And so we come nearly full circle: Knox was convicted because of a cartwheel and that is the beginning and the end of the story. What a shame.

 

[quadraginta]

And so we come nearly full circle: Knox was convicted because of a cartwheel and that is the beginning and the end of the story. What a shame.

Don't forget, Dan O. doesn't get any of his information from FOA sources. He may not know about the cartwheels.

He certainly seems oblivious to the rest of this thread.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Jungle Jim, which lies convinced you that AK and RS were guilty? The prosecution has zero evidence that they were involved yet a whole town was convinced that they were guilty by 2 years of negative press.

Dan o, how can you make ridiculous sweeping statements like 'there is zero evidence aginst them' when we all reading here know the opposite is the case? Indeed, there was so much evidence against them the case file ran to 10,000 pages and took the prosecution almost 6 months to present it in court. Where's your evidence that 'the whole town was convinced of their guilt'? What negative press are you talking about? Do you have any examples?

So what was it that convinced you: The story of a cleanup that never happened?

What is the basis of your claim to say it never happened? The mere fact that half the evidence had to be revealed by luminol and phenolpthalein is self evident proof there was a clean-up. Any belief you may have in opposition to that 'fact' is just that...'belief'.

Footprints that don't match the accused?

The barefoot prints revealed by luminol match both Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. What is the basis of your claim that they don't?

A miniscule trace of something on a knife that tested negative for blood but was found to contain Meredith's DNA

You've yet to explain why it has to be 'blood', even though when stabbing someone with a knife it will past through numerous different biological substances in the body (fat, skin, muscle, sinue, bone, etc,).

in a lab that wasn't designed for LCN DNA testing

Wasn't designed for LCN DNA testing? You mean when the architects designed the lab...'We have to design this lab for LCN...make sure you put the doors here instead of here'...wrong bricks? What are the proper specs for an LCN lab, do you have the blueprints handy for the universal standard? What's the 'right' design for an LCN testing lab? I thought labs simply updated their equipment and techniques as the technology advanced. If I'm wrong about that...how so?

Mixed DNA on the bra clasp that had to be retreived over a month later that also indicated 2 other males and a female that have never been identified and which the prosecution can only say doesn't rule out RS?

Incorrect. The DNA of no other males, other then RS were found on the clasp. The DNA of two identified females was found...Meredith and Amanda. Two partial female profiles were also found...probably of Meredith's house mates. Is there a time limit on collecting evidence for DNA testing? I was unaware of it. What is it?

Or was it the confession that the police tricked out of Amanda after hours of interrogation with physical abuse and deprivation of sleep

All 1 hour and 45 minutes of it? That's how long it was. Perhaps we should ban the questioning of witnesses?

implanting of false memories in a young girl who immediately corrected the error when she woke up with a clearer head?

Except she didn't. When she woke up she demanded a pen and paper and wrote in a statement and then signed and demanded police accept as a 'gift' - "I stand by what I said about Patrick last night". She didn't correct her 'mistake', she confirmed it.

Or was it that they got Raffaele to break by planting false stories in the press that they had found Amanda's fingerprint implanted in Meredeth's forehead and had video of Amanda walking past the car park in the skirt she was wearing that evening so that he would change his story and allow that Amanda could have slipped out that night?

What the Hell are you talking about? Raffaele was questioned on the night of the 5 Nov 2007. After that questioning, he refused to be questioned, or make any more statements. Any such news stories (with your added hyperbole) came out AFTER his last questioning by police.

Any more FOA talking points you want to hit us with? If so, maybe you could open up a new thread for them with the new OP of 'discuss these talking points with anything you wish, except facts or truth which will be considered off topic'. How about it?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

LCN issues

To all,

I dealt with some of the deficiencies of the LCN testing of the knife in post #557. If you want to read more, I suggest Butler's textbook, Forensic DNA Typing. It has a section on LCN and specifically notes the greater chances of contamination.

Chris

 

[Jungle Jim]

Jungle Jim, which lies convinced you that AK and RS were guilty? The prosecution has zero evidence that they were involved yet a whole town was convinced that they were guilty by 2 years of negative press.

So what was it that convinced you: The story of a cleanup that never happened? Footprints that don't match the accused? A miniscule trace of something on a knife that tested negative for blood but was found to contain Meredith's DNA (if you ignore the real possibility of cross contamination in a lab that wasn't designed for LCN DNA testing)? Mixed DNA on the bra clasp that had to be retreived over a month later that also indicated 2 other males and a female that have never been identified and which the prosecution can only say doesn't rule out RS?

Or was it the confession that the police tricked out of Amanda after hours of interrogation with physical abuse and deprivation of sleep; though not so much a confession as the implanting of false memories in a young girl who immediately corrected the error when she woke up with a clearer head?

Or was it that they got Raffaele to break by planting false stories in the press that they had found Amanda's fingerprint implanted in Meredeth's forehead and had video of Amanda walking past the car park in the skirt she was wearing that evening so that he would change his story and allow that Amanda could have slipped out that night?


Yes, the Monster of Perugia was working overtime on this case and he got his conviction.

Fulcanelli gave a more detailed response your post than I could, but I will answer your question. I don’t claim to be an expert in this case. I have followed it pretty close of late. I have taken a fair and opened-minded look at various interpretations of the evidence. I eventually came to think that the three defendants are guilty of the charges for which they were convicted. These are the principal factors in my decision:

1. DNA of the victim is found on a knife in RS’s apartment. RS’s DNA is found on the bra clasp of the victim at the murder scene. I have not been persuaded that the DNA has been contaminated. RS was at the murder scene and he took the murder weapon home with him.

2. Footprints that could be AK & RS are found at the murder scene after an attempt was made to clean them up. A clean up and staged robbery that would only serve someone living in the house.

3. The inconsistencies and outright lies told by both AK & RS when questioned about their whereabouts on the day/night of the murder. Moreover, AKs alibi is being with RS all night (see #1 above).

4. Rudy Guerde. It is a fact beyond dispute that RG was at the cottage on the night of the murder: a) his stool in the toilet; b) his bloody handprint on the pillow; 3) his DNA found inside the victim; 4) RG stated that he was at the cottage the night of the murder. The footprints were of people other than RG meaning there were at three people there that night. The only people RG has mentioned as being there were a man and a woman who resemble AK & RS.