Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Alt+F4]

They also couldn't get rid of Meredith's cell phones, locked AK's lamp on Meredith's room, etc. I've been amazed that they managed to dispose of the second knife & Meredith's keys so effectively. I imagine that the laws of chance indicate that a couple of things would go their way in spite of their general cluelessness.

Since most people don't have two cell phones I think it definitely points to someone who knew she did. Indeed it was general cluelessness to not drop the phones and the knife in the nearest body of deep water.

 

[stilicho]

What I found interesting about these news stories you posted is that all the murders were girls working in pairs and even though some of the articles were vague, it seems like that each pair of girls were more than acquaintances. Also, in none of these cases was the victim sexually assualted.

Am I right in that it was the prosecution's belief that AK and RS just happened to run into RG (who they didn't know, but was friends with the boys downstairs) when they were returning to the cottage with the knife? So they just invite this stranger in to participate in what was going to be at least just a humiliation of MK. Later, as AK is not getting her sexual needs and/or desires met she murders MK.

That is a pretty originial murder plot, I think.

I would change "stranger" to "acquaintance" to describe the relationship of RG with the other three people. Mind you, AK was the catalyst for a lot of quickly-formed acquaintances during her brief stay in Perugia. But this wasn't unusual for her or really for anyone with that kind of personality. She appears to have drawn men like flies everywhere she went upon leaving her parochial school.

Once again, though, I think we make a mistake in emphasising the sexual nature of the power game being played that night in the cottage. How many sexual games have you participated in that included a 20-cm-long knife? The sexual assault was a subtext of the demonstration of authority that AK presumed to wield (along with the knife). The prosecution theory was that the only ones not armed were RG and Meredith.

I think we're straining ourselves looking for examples identical to the Perugia murder case. If instead you concentrate on cases similar in theme--escalating violence, bullying, taunting, restraining the victim--you'll find there are more than enough to compare. I cannot locate a link but I recall a study I'd read of prison officials who would participate in exactly this kind of thing even though they led otherwise ordinary lives and often had no contact apart from the workplace.

Is it so unlikely that someone with the control issues AK seems to have had would include such a casual acquaintance as RG?

 

[stilicho]

But I can't recall another case where the woman also participted in the sexual aspect of the attack.

Of course there is a first time for everything, but I still find it odd.

Are you aware of the Karla Homolka/Paul Bernardo case? Karla videotaped the sexual assaults and also provided the sedatives to poison her own sister. Mind you, they did know one another since they were married so again it's not identical.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Are you aware of the Karla Homolka/Paul Bernardo case? Karla videotaped the sexual assaults and also provided the sedatives to poison her own sister. Mind you, they did know one another since they were married so again it's not identical.

She did more then that. She also sexually abused some of the victims.

 

[lector]

Sidebar on Peggy Hettrick case

A good example of courtroom psychology leading to a wrongful conviction is the Peggy Hettrick murder case^WP.

In that case, the wrongly accused Tim Masters also had quite a knife collection.

I am not sure that it illuminates this case much, but it's fascinating in its own right, and an awful example of virtually every aspect of the justice system gone completely wrong. Like everything else, the case has a dedicated website; there's a wealth of information there for anyone else who might be interested.

My thanks to Kestrel for mentioning this.

 

[stilicho]

Originally Posted by Kestrel
A good example of courtroom psychology leading to a wrongful conviction is the Peggy Hettrick murder caseWP.

In that case, the wrongly accused Tim Masters also had quite a knife collection.

Without knowing much more about it than that Wikipedia page, I'd have to say that's a much weaker case than this one was. No physical evidence. Not even much circumstantial evidence. No statements linking the accused to the crime scene. No constantly changing stories. No readily refuted alibi. The list goes on.

It's not surprising that Masters was released.

 

[quadraginta]

Without knowing much more about it than that Wikipedia page, I'd have to say that's a much weaker case than this one was. No physical evidence. Not even much circumstantial evidence. No statements linking the accused to the crime scene. No constantly changing stories. No readily refuted alibi. The list goes on.

It's not surprising that Masters was released.

From what we've learned here about the total unreliability of DNA evidence it's surprising he was released.

 

[varwoche]

Without knowing much more about it than that Wikipedia page, I'd have to say that's a much weaker case than this one was. No physical evidence. Not even much circumstantial evidence. No statements linking the accused to the crime scene. No constantly changing stories. No readily refuted alibi. The list goes on.

And no cartwheels I assume.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

And no cartwheels I assume.

So, the moral to the thread is:

"Don't do cartwheels in the Police department or you'll go to prison for murder"?

[/thread]

 

[stilicho]

And no cartwheels I assume.

Right now on the PMF forum, they're discussing a new British documentary on the case. In it is featured one of the photographs of AK giggling behind a machine gun, one which she herself dubbed 'the Nazi within'. There was an argument about this being relevant to AK's mindset but I didn't agree with that. Same goes with the cartwheel.

The machine gun in question is housed at an Austrian museum and it looks like an air-cooled Vickers from the Great War. That would make sense since Austria-Hungary (among most belligerents) used the Vickers in that war and it had nothing whatsoever to do with Nazis. Instead it had to do with over 1,500,000 military casualties and hundreds of thousands of dislocated and/or impoverished civilians in the war zones, along with all or parts of three provinces patriated to Italy after the peace was signed.

My point was that it (and the cartwheel) are more indicative of AK's stupidity than of any malice.

The picture of AK before the murder that I found the most relevant was the party picture where an underage drinker raises her plastic beer cup in the company of a group of admiring young men. That, to me, was the real Amanda and fits in very well with her ability to include mere acquaintances in "social situations" they might not normally find themselves in. That's the "Foxy Knoxy" persona that she cultivated on her MySpace page and the one that FOA has fought so hard to deny.

 

[Fiona]

I do not mind peope speculating about such pictures because it is clear that the lack of clear motive is really bothersome for many: but I wish to repeat that neither Knox or anyone else was convicted because of such pictures. A tidy narrative does not a conviction make

 

[Jungle Jim]

I have a couple of points that (for me) need some clarification:

1. I recall reading several references to mushrooms on the night of the murder. What significance (if any) do mushrooms have?

2. I also recall that Rudy's DNA was found on or in (not clear to me which) Meredith as a result of a sexual encounter. What exactly does the prosecution allege Rudy did to Meredith in a sexual nature?

 

[Fiona]

I have a couple of points that (for me) need some clarification:

1. I recall reading several references to mushrooms on the night of the murder. What significance (if any) do mushrooms have?

So far as I know the autopsy showed that Kercher had eaten a mushroom sometime before she was murdered. There were no mushrooms in the meal she shared with her friends at their house. So people were wondering when and where she ate it. I do not think it has any significance really, but there was early attention to it in trying to reconstruct her evening because it would seem she must have eaten it after she got home: and one mushroom is an odd thing to choose if you are snacking by yourself. It is a strange fact if it is true, but since nothing could be made of it I do not think it was pursued: and it is even possible it was part of the speculation rife in the early days and not actually true.

2. I also recall that Rudy's DNA was found on or in (not clear to me which) Meredith as a result of a sexual encounter. What exactly does the prosecution allege Rudy did to Meredith in a sexual nature?

As I understand it Guede's dna was recovered from a vaginal swab: there was no sperm and I gather the evidence is of digital penetration. I do not know how that is established, however: others can probably say more about it.

 

[stilicho]

1. I recall reading several references to mushrooms on the night of the murder. What significance (if any) do mushrooms have?

It is a strange fact if it is true...

Not that strange and not that significant. Dr Lalli, the pathologist responsible for the autopsy, included it in his report. This isn't the report but it is the timeline offered by the prosecution: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C360/

If it is significant, it is in establishing the thoroughness and competence of the autopsy. It was during these procedures that evidence of a sexual assault was revealed, among other things.

@Fiona: I've sometimes had a snack of three slices out of a green pepper or a spoonful of cottage cheese. Think about some of your own snacks you had when you went to university. I'll bet some of them would seem strange to us all even now!

 

[Fiona]

Sure Stilicho: but I think that it is an oddity and that is all it is really.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

My impression had been that the mushroom bit was an attempt to place Meredith at dinner with Knox/Sollecito. I recall reading in the timeline at PMF something that specifically stated that Meredith didn't eat anything with mushrooms while at dinner with her friends while AK and/or RS claimed they'd had pasta with mushrooms for dinner. Not sure how accurate all that is, it's been a few weeks since I first read it. But it sure points/appears to be a defense ploy of some kind (perhaps an attempt to explain her DNA on the knife...)

 

[Fiona]

Doesn't really work, BobtheDonkey.

Knox and Sollecitor stayed in his house all evening (or they didn't) and they had pasta with mushrooms for dinner (or fish) at about 8 0'clock (or 11 0'clock), according to the defence.

I do remember some speculation that they in fact had dinner at Knox's place and that Meredith came back during this and possibly had a mushroom and maybe some wine or something: but I do not think there was ever anything from the defence in support of that: nor any real evidence

 

[Jungle Jim]

Fiona: Thanks for your response.

I suppose the mushroom tells us that after arriving home she had time to eat something before things went bad.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Fiona: Thanks for your response.

I suppose the mushroom tells us that after arriving home she had time to eat something before things went bad.

Well, what it tells us us firstly she didn't eat the mushroom at her friend's and secondly, she was killed very shortly after eating it...because the mushroom was actually in her esophagus, rather then stomach.

 

[Dan O.]

Can you point out where the mention of the mushroom is in the Micheli report? It seams that this would be a vital clue in establishing the proper time of death yet I can't find where it is mentioned in either the english translation or the original Italian.