Obama and the Gay Military...

[ponderingturtle]

I think it is a fantasy. All fantasies would be nice. What GreyIce and Sledge and the other dreamers here fail to understand is that I do not oppose the dream of equality.

Taking all things into consideration, I think there is reason to believe that it would not work. It is not worth the risk. Consider what could happen if it did not work.

Let's first get gay marrage in all 50 states. Then I might agree it will be a peaceful transition in the military.

Again, so it was wrong to integrate blacks in to the military before all 50 states had voted to allow interracial marriage?

 

[Bill Thompson]

Again, so it was wrong to integrate blacks in to the military before all 50 states had voted to allow interracial marriage?

It is not nearly the same thing.

No one is born hating black people.

But some people are repuled by gays and they are not raised that way.

I have explained this several times to you. I will have to explain it severalmore, I think.

 

[Alt+F4]

No one is born hating black people.

No one is born hating gays either. No one is born hating anyone.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It is not nearly the same thing.

No one is born hating black people.

So you are now arguing that homophobia is genetic?

But some people are repuled by gays and they are not raised that way.

And not all racists were raised that way.

 

[pgwenthold]

Good gravy, folks, it is obvious that either Bill is completely yanking your chains, or a complete imbecile, although I am leaning to the former (I can't imagine anyone being that stupid and being able to turn on a computer). Neither of which makes him worth responding to.

 

[Alan]

I'd just like to keep bringing up the same questions I've asked many times before. It's surprisingly entertaining for me to see him dodge them.

1) Are you suggesting again that the rules are equal between people of different sexualities in the U.S. military? You're really flip-flopping on that point.

2) Would say "shut up" before a man in the US military got say that his partner is a "she"? Would you want him to be discharged if he said it?

Would say "shut up" before a woman in the US military got to say that her partner is a "she"? Would you want her to be discharged if she said it?

 

[Bill Thompson]

No one is born hating gays either. No one is born hating anyone.

I think you are wrong. Sexual preference good and bad is something one is not taught.

 

[Bill Thompson]

So you are now arguing that homophobia is genetic?

You like using that stupid word. I don't.

 

[Bill Thompson]

WTF. You people thing people are RAISED to be repulsed by homosexuality? That is just as ludicrous as supposing gay men are RAISED to be repulsed by a photo of a naked woman!

 

[Alan]

They are not equivalent. One is a sexual orientation. The other is a response to a sexual orientation.

Do you really deny that homophobia can be learned?

Please add that to the list of questions.

 

[Sledge]

Remind us, Bill: what ARE the reasons for opposing gay people serving openly in the military? It's gotta be something to do with Americans being horrible people, seeing as no other country that's got rid of this ridiculous bit of discrimination has had a problem.

 

[ponderingturtle]

WTF. You people thing people are RAISED to be repulsed by homosexuality? That is just as ludicrous as supposing gay men are RAISED to be repulsed by a photo of a naked woman!

You realize that I suspect few gay men are repulsed by the photo of a naked woman, they are just not aroused by it to the extent that a photo of a man might.

Gay men do not generally hate women. They are just not sexually attracted to them.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Again, so it was wrong to integrate blacks in to the military before all 50 states had voted to allow interracial marriage?

It is not the same thing. Sexual attraction is not a learned thing. Likewise, neither is sexual repulsion. Sexual orientation is not aquired. You are born with it.

Also, you cannot pass a law and expect to change people because of it. At least, you cannot expect that in the USA. Jimmy Carter's administration passed laws demanding our conversion to the metric system and this is an example to our resistance to change.

I cannot speak for gay people but I am sure they have their list of what they feel comfortable being around and exposed to. Does that make them heterophobes?

Actually I do have some experience with lesbians and lesbian clubs. The Point After in Knoxville did all it could to keep men out. I guess that makes them manaphobes.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Remind us, Bill: what ARE the reasons for opposing gay people serving openly in the military? It's gotta be something to do with Americans being horrible people, seeing as no other country that's got rid of this ridiculous bit of discrimination has had a problem.

That does not mean the benefit from it. No other group or organization has the capacity to do scientific research as much or to the extent as the US military. If it would help them, I am sure they would change their policy.

Also, what is it to you?

 

[Alt+F4]

Also, you cannot pass a law and expect to change people because of it. At least, you cannot expect that in the USA. Jimmy Carter's administration passed laws demanding our conversion to the metric system and this is an example to our resistance to change.

What the heck are you talking about? It was Ford, not Carter that signed the Metric Conversion Act of 1975. Conversion to the metric system was voluntary. The U.S. Metric Board was established but it had no power to mandate metrication.

In addition, the military has been using the metric system by the 1950s.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It is not the same thing. Sexual attraction is not a learned thing. Likewise, neither is sexual repulsion. Sexual orientation is not aquired. You are born with it.

And how do you know that race based repulsion is not innate just like sexual repulsion? Present your evidence.

Also, you cannot pass a law and expect to change people because of it. At least, you cannot expect that in the USA. Jimmy Carter's administration passed laws demanding our conversion to the metric system and this is an example to our resistance to change.

So you are again you are arguing against the intergration of blacks into the military.

I cannot speak for gay people but I am sure they have their list of what they feel comfortable being around and exposed to. Does that make them heterophobes?

I find that rather unlikely. Homosexuals are just to much a distributed minority for them to not broadly be confortable around heterosexuals, because it is only as adults that they can really concentrate in to limited areas and become a local majority.

Actually I do have some experience with lesbians and lesbian clubs. The Point After in Knoxville did all it could to keep men out. I guess that makes them manaphobes.

The thing is that a club is very very different from a job like the military. People go to clubs to meet people that they want to have sex with. So being confident that people are there to have sex with people like you is a good thing, and there is also the staring aspect, if the guys are there to gawk at the lesbians, well most people are not into that.

But as the military is not a dating enviroment it is not really relevant to this issue.

 

[Sledge]

It is not the same thing. Sexual attraction is not a learned thing. Likewise, neither is sexual repulsion. Sexual orientation is not aquired. You are born with it.

Also, you cannot pass a law and expect to change people because of it. At least, you cannot expect that in the USA. Jimmy Carter's administration passed laws demanding our conversion to the metric system and this is an example to our resistance to change.

Yes. Yes we can. Laws have been passed on a lot of things that have changed people. Slavery is the big example, or if you want something more recent: seatbelts.

I cannot speak for gay people but I am sure they have their list of what they feel comfortable being around and exposed to. Does that make them heterophobes?

We all have things that we're comfortable around, that doesn't make us homophobic. Hating gay people makes you homophobic. Try and keep up, there's a good lad.

Actually I do have some experience with lesbians and lesbian clubs.

Hiding in a tree outside, peering through a window with binoculars does not count.

The Point After in Knoxville did all it could to keep men out. I guess that makes them manaphobes.

Were they keeping all men out, or is it just you that got turned away at the door?

That does not mean the benefit from it. No other group or organization has the capacity to do scientific research as much or to the extent as the US military. If it would help them, I am sure they would change their policy.

No, my question was "what ARE the reasons for opposing gay people serving openly in the military?" I did not say "please post the first words that cross your mind in the next five minutes." You seem to make this mistake a lot, and frankly I'm beginning to think you're avoiding the point on purpose.

Also, what is it to you?

What's it to you? What's it to anyone? Or an even better question: what the non-existant Christ does that have to do with anything we're discussing?

 

[funk de fino]

Just checking in to see if the short term service guy was still pontificating on things he has no clue about.

And yes, he is.

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

Military research has held up that allowing homosexuals to openly serve would not negatively impact the military or its effectiveness in performing war.

Military research has help that the current ban has negatively affected morale and the effectiveness of war efforts.

Military personell have set up plans to integrate open homosexuals into the military in anticipation of a government directive.

What are we missing? A government directive.

Even though a large number of retired generals signed a petition opposing a repeal of DADT to overwhelm the smaller number of retired generals who petitioned in support of a repeal, the currently serving military leaders are generally holding close their personal opinions. Most US citizens in uniform do not appear to care if they work with homosexuals. Most already realize that they do.

 

[cwalner]

But some people are repuled by gays and they are not raised that way.

I have explained this several times to you. I will have to explain it severalmore, I think.

Bigotry is genetic? I must say Bill, you keep surpassing my expectations. Every time you post in this thread, I think 'That is the most ignorant statement I have ever seen. I will not see its like again' Yet your next post, you go out of your way to prove me wrong

WTF. You people thing people are RAISED to be repulsed by homosexuality? That is just as ludicrous as supposing gay men are RAISED to be repulsed by a photo of a naked woman!

Yes, as a gay man, I feel the uncontrolable urge to wretch every time I see a naked woman. In fact, that time that I was chilling with some straight friends and they decided to watch some porn, I felt like Alex in A Clockwork Orange.

I cannot speak for gay people but I am sure they have their list of what they feel comfortable being around and exposed to. Does that make them heterophobes?

As a a gay man, I am uncomfortable around heterosexual public displays of affection. It does not repulse me, but it does make me uncomfortable. But guess what, it happens and I cope, then move on and try to forget about it. All I ask is the same respect from heterosexuals who are unformtable around my PDA's with my boyfriend.

Actually I do have some experience with lesbians and lesbian clubs. The Point After in Knoxville did all it could to keep men out. I guess that makes them manaphobes.

Maybe that's because a straight guy going to a lesbian club is often trying to fulfil his sexual fantasy that is completely incompatable with the purpose of the lesbian club in the first place. Straight women come into gay clubs all the time and nobody cares, since they typically come there because they just want a place to dance without every guy in the place hitting on them and we are more than happy to oblige by completely failing to hit on them.