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Obama and the Gay Military...

The sex part is irrelevant, a male soldier mentioning going to dinner with his boyfriend gets kicked out. It doesn't matter if they have had sex or not.

Indeed. In post #748 Bill said that at his job that an "expression of sexual orientation" would get someone fired. No one said anything about sex at the office. An expression of sexual orientation is something as simple as mentioning who you went bowling with last Tuesday.

So again Bill, in what civilian profession is someone fired for not what they do, but for simply talking about who they live with?
 
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So we're back to the following again:
Wow, where do you work? Forget the miltiary for a second. In my office, sharing your sexual preference "f you wish"will get you fired or at least in trouble. Saying "yeah, I prefer guys, sexually" or "yeah, I prefer women, sexually" will get you shot over to admin like a bullet.

It doesn't belong in the office. Noone needs to hear that crap. It does not belong in the workplace.

So it sure as hell does not belong in the military.
 
Wow, where do you work? Forget the miltiary for a second. In my office, sharing your sexual preference "f you wish"will get you fired or at least in trouble.

Really? How odd. Most of my coworkers have photos of their spouses on their desks, and regularly mention them in conversation.

You say that doing that would get you fired at your job? Some friendly advice: get a new gig.
 
Where I work you cannot tell who is gay and who is straight. Isn't that the best of all options?
No one talks about ones partner. I rarely see photos of them on people's desk. People often have photos
of their kids, but that does not have anything to do with sexual preference.

You can get into trouble taking about sex. No one is sure where the line of offense is and so
people avoid the subject altogether just like talking about religion or politics.

I am talking here about my current civilian job.

Shouldn't the military be held to a higher standard?

Comments by other posters here have brought up cases where a gay man was victimized and killed while he
was on leave from the military. This leads me to think that DADT has saved lives. And, ironically, I
could claim that the opponents of DADT are against it because they are the gay-bashers and they want them
more easily exposed.

There is much more to this subject but every time I come here I end up repeating previous posts or answering
minutia questions. One think to note is that the United States is a country of law suits. People love to
sue here. Striking down DADT can conceivably open the door to law suits. One thing the military really hates
is being slowed down by law suits brought on by family members of someone who has died under suspicious
circumstances. I can see a time where the death of every openly gay man from friendly fire will be scrutinized.
Commanding Officers will be held accountable for possibly teaming an openly gay man with other men who
had expressed a repulsion to homosexuality. Death by friendly fire would appear to be murder and the Commanding
Officer would be an accessory to murder.

I think I present some valid concerns. I also think that many people here are blinded by their ideology.
People tend to believe in something because it is "the right thing" to believe in rather than logically and
rationally considering alternatives.
 
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Where I work you cannot tell who is gay and who is straight. Isn't that the best of all options?
No one talks about ones partner. I rarely see photos of them on people's desk. People often have photos
of their kids, but that does not have anything to do with sexual preference.

You can get into trouble taking about sex. No one is sure where the line of offense is and so
people avoid the subject altogether just like talking about religion or politics.

I am talking here about my current civilian job.

Shouldn't the military be held to a higher standard?
The problem with this, Bill, is that what you describe is so far removed from what is standard in the civilian world, that it is hard to believe you are accurately describing a civilian workplace. Yes, there are harrasment rules, and crossing those lines can get people in trouble, but you are implying that your workplace has rules against a man saying 'My bofriend and I went to see [insert movie name here] last weekend and we really enjoyed it'. Most of our expeirence tells us that if anybody went to HR complaining that they were offended by that statment, it would not be the man talked about going to the movies with his boyfriend who got into trouble.

Striking down DADT can conceivably open the door to law suits. One thing the military really hates
is being slowed down by law suits brought on by family members of someone who has died under suspicious
circumstances. I can see a time where the death of every openly gay man from friendly fire will be scrutinized.
Commanding Officers will be held accountable for possibly teaming an openly gay man with other men who
had expressed a repulsion to homosexuality. Death by friendly fire would appear to be murder and the Commanding
Officer would be an accessory to murder.

Here, the problem is that I would expect the military to scrutinize every incident in which a soldier dies of friendly fire, regardless of the professed sexuality of the soldier. If an investigation finds that the friendly fire was not accidental, then I would expect the perpetrator to be found guilty of murder. If the soldier's commanding officer was found to have facilitated or covered up the incident, then that officer should be considered an accesory to murder. As I am not a military person, I do not know this, but I would strongly suspect that this is in fact, already the case. (I do seem to recall some high profile incidents, in which it was found to be not intentional, but those responsible for the death were still found guilty of negligent homocide - or the UCMJ equivalent). I would appreciate if others with recent experience in the US military could confirm or deny this.

The thing is, this is all regardless of whatever traits happen to be possessed by the victim of the friendly fire. US soldiers killing each other, for any reason, is just plain bad for the US military, and it is in thier best interest to put a stop to it. As the sexuality of the soldier is not an issue here, the application of DADT to friendly fire incidents is a complete non-starter for me.
 
It was with a heavy heart I clicked on this thread again, and apparently with good reason. Good grief. I think we've reached the point where Bill's claim that he works somewhere that forbids any mention of a spouse or partner is extraordinary. Therefore, what is the evidence of this? Or to put it another way, where do you work, Bill?
 
It was with a heavy heart I clicked on this thread again, and apparently with good reason. Good grief. I think we've reached the point where Bill's claim that he works somewhere that forbids any mention of a spouse or partner is extraordinary. Therefore, what is the evidence of this? Or to put it another way, where do you work, Bill?

Microsoft, I do believe.
 
Somehow I'm having trouble believing that Microsoft forbid mention of a person's spouse. Hmm, I wonder if it's possible to see their contracts online?
 
Where I work you cannot tell who is gay and who is straight. Isn't that the best of all options?
No one talks about ones partner. I rarely see photos of them on people's desk. People often have photos
of their kids, but that does not have anything to do with sexual preference.

So you are really claiming that you have no idea which of your coworkers are married and the such?

Are spouses banned from any company event? At my company spouses and girlfriends are invited to the company picnic. At your company they would be fired.
 
On this topic, he wrote:
And by the way, find the post I made where I clamed to work for Microsoft. I wonder where I said that.
Not that that's all that important to this topic.

Please answer the questions I began asking almost a month ago, Bill.
 
It was with a heavy heart I clicked on this thread again, and apparently with good reason. Good grief. I think we've reached the point where Bill's claim that he works somewhere that forbids any mention of a spouse or partner is extraordinary. Therefore, what is the evidence of this? Or to put it another way, where do you work, Bill?

I think I figured it out. Bill is a Catholic priest. It is the only job in the civilian world I can think of where someone would be fired for being married.
 
Where I work you cannot tell who is gay and who is straight. Isn't that the best of all options?

Where I work it doesn't matter, as no one really cares. Homosexuality is seen as just as normal as heterosexuality is.

The same was true when I was in the army, where I served together with homosexuals both at home and abroad. No one cared one bit.

Isn't that the best of all options?
 
The military is not concerned, on this level, about fairness and equal treatment. The military exists, by their own admittion (during the first Gulf War) to break and destroy. Political correctness, and other issues (I can think of some other ones such as concern for their carbon footprint) do not work to provide the military with their efficiney in reaching their goal.

Society needs to change inorder for people to become more tollerant. The military is not the venue for an adjustment of society.

People here have mentioned racial integration and women playing a larger role in the military. But both of these changes came about first in the civlilan world prior to being accepted in the military.
 
People here have mentioned racial integration and women playing a larger role in the military. But both of these changes came about first in the civlilan world prior to being accepted in the military.

Still digging?

I don't know if you've noticed, but it is now legal to be homosexual in most civilised countries.
 
People here have mentioned racial integration and women playing a larger role in the military. But both of these changes came about first in the civlilan world prior to being accepted in the military.

Not really, the military was integrated before such things as baseball, or schools, so you can't really say the civilian world was integrated when the military was integrated. So you argument here is factually incorrect.
 
The military is not concerned, on this level, about fairness and equal treatment. The military exists, by their own admittion (during the first Gulf War) to break and destroy. Political correctness, and other issues (I can think of some other ones such as concern for their carbon footprint) do not work to provide the military with their efficiney in reaching their goal.

Society needs to change inorder for people to become more tollerant. The military is not the venue for an adjustment of society.

People here have mentioned racial integration and women playing a larger role in the military. But both of these changes came about first in the civlilan world prior to being accepted in the military.
No, no, we went over this pages ago when you said the military lead the way in racial integration because of evidence, and I showed that that 'evidence' didn't exist, and it was based on the opinions and beliefs of senior officers and generals.

The senior officers and generals are now irrelevant, opinion-wise, apparently.

So you changed the facts again.
 
Not really, the military was integrated before such things as baseball, or schools, so you can't really say the civilian world was integrated when the military was integrated. So you argument here is factually incorrect.

For pete's sake, you are being way too kind here. That statement by Bill shows clearly that he is not serious.
 
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-01-02/repeal-dont-ask-dont-tell/

That would be nice. I don't think it looks like he'll do things that way, though.

I think it is a fantasy. All fantasies would be nice. What GreyIce and Sledge and the other dreamers here fail to understand is that I do not oppose the dream of equality.

Taking all things into consideration, I think there is reason to believe that it would not work. It is not worth the risk. Consider what could happen if it did not work.

Let's first get gay marrage in all 50 states. Then I might agree it will be a peaceful transition in the military.
 
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