Electric universe theories here.

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Michael Mozina said:
Simply *AMAZING*. I provided you with two *NEW* papers on electrical discharge process in the solar atmosphere and you utterly ignored them. What kind of weird game are you playing? What's the point of even having a conversation with you?
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I find the best method to employ michael is that if Rc is going to continually post pejorative outdated information that you do the same back, just copy and paste the reponces you have given in reply instead of getting frought about re-answering already answered questions.
 
Zeuzzz said:
I find the best method to employ michael is that if Rc is going to continually post pejorative outdated information that you do the same back, just copy and paste the reponces you have given in reply instead of getting frought about re-answering already answered questions.
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That is a general thing. If someone cannot remember the information you told them min a long thread like this then a reminder is in order. A link to the actual posts rather then just stating that you supplied the information is handy.

So MM where is the post with these 2 new papers on your Iron Sun idea?

ETA
I do hope that you do not mean
Eruptions of Magnetic Ropes in Two Homologous Solar Events on 2002 June 1 and 2: a Key to Understanding of an Enigmatic Flare
Generation of large scale electric fields in coronal flare circuits
There are no Iron Sun electrical discharges in these papers. Just standard solar physics.
 
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Michael, I'm still waiting to find out what you think of my last post.

Do you agree that ideal blackbody radiators can't be transparent? If so the next step is showing that they can't even be translucent - they must be perfectly opaque. The argument is only slightly different from the one I already gave.
 
sol invictus said:
Michael, I'm still waiting to find out what you think of my last post.

Do you agree that ideal blackbody radiators can't be transparent? If so the next step is showing that they can't even be translucent - they must be perfectly opaque. The argument is only slightly different from the one I already gave.
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Sol, I believe that your intent is honorable, and your question deserves a thoughtful response with a bit of detail. Unfortunately I've been focused on programming this week, and I'm leaving early tomorrow to do a training.

Let me respond for the time being in this way. I think that it is a *huge* (and I mean huge) mistake, and a gross oversimplification, to attempt to think of a the sun as a single surface at a single temperature. It is composed of many layers at many different temperatures and the flow of particles from the sun creates a "river of heat" that comes off the sun in "waves". I know that sounds rather vague, but it will have to do for the time being. I have some actual work deadlines at the moment, and I will need to complete these projects before I have the luxury of more fully explaining myself.

Suffice to say, I think that Birkeland's terella is the best example I can think of. The "heat" from the coronal loops plays a significant role in the total energy from the sun. I should also note that iron ion wavelengths like we observe in SOHO and STEREO images cover the full surface of the sun. The "surface' itself is "relatively dark" and also relatively cool. The plasma atmosphere is separated into various plasma layers as described by this diagram from my website:

NewModel.JPG


IMO, the outer atmosphere is mass separated by the element, with protons and electrons flowing from the surface, just like Birkeland's model. Just like Birkeland's model, the total energy output depends on the total circuit energy not simply upon the temperature of any given "surface". The denser layers near the surface are "cool" (say under 1500 Kelvin) and provide a layer of "insulation" that helps keep the crust from melting The upper layers are thinner and progressively hotter. The silicon layer that meets up with the neon photosphere is "thicker" than any of the other plasma layers and makes up the bulk of the 4800 KM between the surface of the neon photosphere and the actual surface of the sun.

The "total" energy output must match, but the idea of a pure (or even close) black body spectrum is a gross oversimplification IMO. Those two or three molecules you mentioned really don't take into account the FE IX ions, or those heavily ionized Nickel ions and they won't fit properly into that black body spectrum for obvious reasons. The sun is not a pure "black body" and it is meaningless to treat it that way IMO.
 
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Michael will never acknowledge that not only are blackbodies perfectly opaque, but anything approximating a blackbody must necessarily be close to opaque.

But what I'm wondering is why Michael thinks neon plasmas are white.
 
Ziggurat said:
Michael will never acknowledge that not only are blackbodies perfectly opaque, but anything approximating a blackbody must necessarily be close to opaque.

But what I'm wondering is why Michael thinks neon plasmas are white.
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The photosphere is not pure neon. It has virtually every other element running through it and many molecules as well. The sun is a very dynamic environment and although the plasmas are mass separated to a great degree, and it is "ionized" to some degree, there are particles flowing in and through every layer of the solar atmosphere, including the neon photosphere.
 
Zeuzzz said:
I find the best method to employ michael is that if Rc is going to continually post pejorative outdated information that you do the same back, just copy and paste the reponces you have given in reply instead of getting frought about re-answering already answered questions.
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Thanks for the advice.
 
Michael Mozina said:
The photosphere is not pure neon. It has virtually every other element running through it and many molecules as well. The sun is a very dynamic environment and although the plasmas are mass separated to a great degree, and it is "ionized" to some degree, there are particles flowing in and through every layer of the solar atmosphere, including the neon photosphere.
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Have you changed your mind again?

From the list of unanswered questions:
  1. How does the "mostly neon" surface emit white light? First asked 19 July 2009
    Now retracted for
  2. Entire photon "spectrum" is composed of all the emissions from all the layers First asked 3 August 2009
 
Michael Mozina said:
Thanks for the advice.
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Maybe you did not notice my reply:
That is a general thing. If someone cannot remember the information you told them min a long thread like this then a reminder is in order. A link to the actual posts rather then just stating that you supplied the information is handy.

So MM where is the post with these 2 new papers on your Iron Sun idea?

ETA
I do hope that you do not mean
Eruptions of Magnetic Ropes in Two Homologous Solar Events on 2002 June 1 and 2: a Key to Understanding of an Enigmatic Flare
Generation of large scale electric fields in coronal flare circuits
There are no Iron Sun electrical discharges in these papers. Just standard solar physics.
 
Michael Mozina said:
Sol, I believe that your intent is honorable, and your question deserves a thoughtful response with a bit of detail.
Click to expand...

OK, I'll wait for your response.

Let me respond for the time being in this way. I think that it is a *huge* (and I mean huge) mistake, and a gross oversimplification, to attempt to think of a the sun as a single surface at a single temperature.
Click to expand...

That's fine (in fact I agree with you).

The "total" energy output must match, but the idea of a pure (or even close) black body spectrum is a gross oversimplification IMO. Those two or three molecules you mentioned really don't take into account the FE IX ions, or those heavily ionized Nickel ions and they won't fit properly into that black body spectrum for obvious reasons. The sun is not a pure "black body" and it is meaningless to treat it that way IMO.
Click to expand...

You lost me. You can just point an instrument at the sun and measure its spectrum. Forget theory, forget models - just look at sunlight (preferably above the atmosphere so it doesn't get in the way). I showed a plot of the result a while back. It's very close to a blackbody spectrum. I'm pretty sure you're not denying that - so I'm not sure how to interpret the first sentence in the quote above.

And that's where I want to start - I just want to use that piece of information (that the spectrum of sunlight is close to a pure blackbody) and see how far it can take us. But I want to do so step by step, with your acknowledgment at each one.
 
Outstanding questions for Michael Mozina

Michael Mozina has started another thread so maybe he has had time to find answers to these outstanding questions.
These are some of the questions that MM has been asked and seems incapable of answering other than by unsupported assertions (new questions in green)

  1. What is the amount of 171A light emitted by the photosphere and can it be detected? First asked 6th July 2009
  2. A post that seemed to retract his "mountain ranges" on the TRACE 171A RD animation evoked this question:
    What discharge rates and processes come from your hypothetical thermodynamically impossible solid iron surface to show up as records of change in the RD animation in the corona. First asked 6th July 2009
  3. From tusenfem:
    Where is the the solar wind and the appropriate math in Birkelands book? First asked 7th July 2009
  4. Please cite where in his book Birkeland identified fission as the "original current source" and in the same post
  5. Please cite where in his book Birkeland identified a discharge process between the Sun's surface and the heliosphere (about 10 billion kilometers from the Sun). First asked 7th July 2009
  6. Is your solid iron surface thermodynamically possible? First asked 8 July 2009
    See this post for a fuller explanation of the thermodynamic problems with MM's solid iron surface.
  7. Coronal loops are electrical discharges? First asked 10 July 2009
    This is an updated question with a couple of "answers" from MM.
  8. Can Micheal Mozina answer a simple RD animation question? First asked 10 July 2009
  9. More questions for Michael Mozina about the photosphere optical depth First asked 13 July 2009
  10. Formation of the iron surface First asked 13 July 2009
  11. How much is "mostly neon" MM? First asked 13 July 2009
  12. Just how useless is the Iron Sun model? First asked 13 July 2009
  13. Coronal loop heating question for Michael Mozina First asked 13 July 2009
  14. Coronal loop stability question for Michael Mozina First asked 13 July 2009He does link to his copy of Alfvén and Carlqvist's 1966 paper (Currents in the Solar Atmosphere and A theory of Solar Flares). This does not model what we now know a real solar flare acts like.
  15. Has the hollow Iron Sun been tested? First asked 14 July 2009
  16. Is Saturn the Sun? First asked 14 July 2009(Birkelands Fig 247a is an analogy for Saturn's rings but MM compares it to to the Sun).
  17. Question about "streams of electrons" for Micheal Mozina First asked 14 July 2009MM has one reply in which is mistakenly thinks that this question is about coronal loops.
  18. What is the temperature above the iron crust in the Iron Sun model? First asked 17 July 2009
  19. What part of the Sun emits a nearly black body spectrum with an effective temperature of 5777 K?
    (MM states that it is not the photosphere) First asked 18 July 2009
  20. Is the iron surface is kept cooler than the photosphere by heated particles? First asked 18 July 2009
  21. How does the "mostly neon" surface emit white light? First asked 19 July 2009
    Now retracted for
  22. Entire photon "spectrum" is composed of all the emissions from all the layers First asked 3 August 2009
  23. Same event in different passbands = surface of the Sun moves? First asked 22 July 2009
    Seems to think that 3 pixel differences (full Sun image) or 10's of pixels (limb image) are not detectable. Astronomers would disagree.
  24. Evidence for the existence of "dark" electrons First asked 28 July 2008
  25. MHD also treats plasmas as particles and circuits according to Alfven First asked 29 July 2009Can you give a citation to where Alfven states that he derives the equations of MHD from collections of particles rather than a fluid?
  26. Why neon for your "mostly neon" photosphere? First asked 30 July 2009
  27. Where is the "mostly fluorine" layer? First asked 30 July 2009
  28. What is your physical evidence for "mostly Li/Be/B/C/N/O" layers? First asked 30 July 2009
  29. What is your physical evidence for the "mostly deuterium" layer? First asked 30 July 2009
  30. Explain the shape of your electrical arcs (coronal loops) First asked 2 August 2009
  31. What is your physical evidence for the silicon in sunspots? First asked 7 August 2009
Actual Answers From Michael Mozina::dl:

Unsupported Assertions as Answers from Michal Mozina:
  1. How are these items of evidence for dark matter incorrect?
    First asked 23rd June 2009
    So far just that astronomers have got the visible masses of galaxies wrong (and another reply with his usual "if we cannot detect it on Earth then it does not exist" non-science).
    Now he is on about dark electrons (see above) as an example of matter that cannot be detected!
  2. Why do the composition of the "mostly neon" photoshere and the corona differ?
    First asked 22nd July 2009
    It is "mass separation" - no actual physics cited or experiments. No understanding of the consequences - see the questions about layers.
 
Someone has a lot of time on their hands.

Would that post be similar to the numerous posts that I frequently used to post with dozens of links in them, and thus can be dismissed as spam that no-one has the time to read like people used to?

Maybe picking one or two questions would be a better idea instead of that huge wall of text and links.
 
Zeuzzz said:
Someone has a lot of time on their hands.
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Actually not - the list was gathered over a period of months.

Zeuzzz said:
Would that post be similar to the numerous posts that I frequently used to post with dozens of links in them, and thus can be dismissed as spam that no-one has the time to read like people used to?
Click to expand...
No. This is a list of questions for MM specifically. The links are to the posts that posed the questions.

Zeuzzz said:
Maybe picking one or two questions would be a better idea instead of that huge wall of text and links.
Click to expand...
Been there, done that, for example:
From the list of unanswered questions:
  1. How does the "mostly neon" surface emit white light? First asked 19 July 2009
    Now retracted for
  2. Entire photon "spectrum" is composed of all the emissions from all the layers First asked 3 August 2009
Click to expand...

The advanatge of having all the unanswered questions in one post is that it is easy to see how hopeless MM is at answering the questions that arise from his idea.
 
How do MM's "layers" survive the convection currents in the Sun

First asked 26 December 2009
How do your layers survive the convection currents in the Sun?
 
These are some of the questions that MM has been asked and seems incapable of answering other than by unsupported assertions (new questions in green)

  1. What is the amount of 171A light emitted by the photosphere and can it be detected? First asked 6th July 2009
  2. A post that seemed to retract his "mountain ranges" on the TRACE 171A RD animation evoked this question:
    What discharge rates and processes come from your hypothetical thermodynamically impossible solid iron surface to show up as records of change in the RD animation in the corona. First asked 6th July 2009
  3. From tusenfem:
    Where is the the solar wind and the appropriate math in Birkelands book? First asked 7th July 2009
  4. Please cite where in his book Birkeland identified fission as the "original current source" and in the same post
  5. Please cite where in his book Birkeland identified a discharge process between the Sun's surface and the heliosphere (about 10 billion kilometers from the Sun). First asked 7th July 2009
  6. Is your solid iron surface thermodynamically possible? First asked 8 July 2009
    See this post for a fuller explanation of the thermodynamic problems with MM's solid iron surface.
  7. Coronal loops are electrical discharges? First asked 10 July 2009
    This is an updated question with a couple of "answers" from MM.
  8. Can Micheal Mozina answer a simple RD animation question? First asked 10 July 2009
  9. More questions for Michael Mozina about the photosphere optical depth First asked 13 July 2009
  10. Formation of the iron surface First asked 13 July 2009
  11. How much is "mostly neon" MM? First asked 13 July 2009
  12. Just how useless is the Iron Sun model? First asked 13 July 2009
  13. Coronal loop heating question for Michael Mozina First asked 13 July 2009
  14. Coronal loop stability question for Michael Mozina First asked 13 July 2009He does link to his copy of Alfvén and Carlqvist's 1966 paper (Currents in the Solar Atmosphere and A theory of Solar Flares). This does not model what we now know a real solar flare acts like.
  15. Has the hollow Iron Sun been tested? First asked 14 July 2009
  16. Is Saturn the Sun? First asked 14 July 2009(Birkelands Fig 247a is an analogy for Saturn's rings but MM compares it to to the Sun).
  17. Question about "streams of electrons" for Micheal Mozina First asked 14 July 2009MM has one reply in which is mistakenly thinks that this question is about coronal loops.
  18. What is the temperature above the iron crust in the Iron Sun model? First asked 17 July 2009
  19. What part of the Sun emits a nearly black body spectrum with an effective temperature of 5777 K?
    (MM states that it is not the photosphere) First asked 18 July 2009
  20. Is the iron surface is kept cooler than the photosphere by heated particles? First asked 18 July 2009
  21. How does the "mostly neon" surface emit white light? First asked 19 July 2009
    Now retracted for
  22. Entire photon "spectrum" is composed of all the emissions from all the layers First asked 3 August 2009
  23. Same event in different passbands = surface of the Sun moves? First asked 22 July 2009
    Seems to think that 3 pixel differences (full Sun image) or 10's of pixels (limb image) are not detectable. Astronomers would disagree.
  24. Evidence for the existence of "dark" electrons First asked 28 July 2008
  25. MHD also treats plasmas as particles and circuits according to Alfven First asked 29 July 2009 Can you give a citation to where Alfven states that he derives the equations of MHD from collections of particles rather than a fluid?
  26. Why neon for your "mostly neon" photosphere? First asked 30 July 2009
  27. Where is the "mostly fluorine" layer? First asked 30 July 2009
  28. What is your physical evidence for "mostly Li/Be/B/C/N/O" layers? First asked 30 July 2009
  29. What is your physical evidence for the "mostly deuterium" layer? First asked 30 July 2009
  30. Explain the shape of your electrical arcs (coronal loops) First asked 2 August 2009
  31. What is your physical evidence for the silicon in sunspots? First asked 7 August 2009
  32. How do MM's "layers" survive the convection currents in the Sun? First asked 26 December 2009
Actual Answers From Michael Mozina::dl:


Unsupported Assertions as Answers from Michal Mozina:
  1. How are these items of evidence for dark matter incorrect?
    First asked 23rd June 2009
    So far just that astronomers have got the visible masses of galaxies wrong (and another reply with his usual "if we cannot detect it on Earth then it does not exist" non-science).
    Now he is on about dark electrons (see above) as an example of matter that cannot be detected!
  2. Why do the composition of the "mostly neon" photoshere and the corona differ?
    First asked 22nd July 2009
    It is "mass separation" - no actual physics cited or experiments. No understanding of the consequences - see the questions about layers.
 
8 Can Micheal Mozina answer a simple RD animation question? First asked 10 July 2009

Isnt a RD image just a form of compression??
It will show you everything that changes from frame to frame kinda like Indeo Video compression. Its so you dont have to send the whole frame every time.
 
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brantc said:
8 Can Micheal Mozina answer a simple RD animation question? First asked 10 July 2009

Isnt a RD image just a form of compression??
It will show you everything that changes from frame to frame kinda like Indeo Video compression. Its so you dont have to send the whole frame every time.
Click to expand...


The running difference images Michael refers to are created by starting with two images of a particular area of the Sun taken at different times. A software program is then used to compare these images pixel by pixel. Each pixel in the first image is compared to the corresponding pixel in the second image. The result is a third image, the running difference image, where a new pixel is placed in each same space as the corresponding pixels from the original images. The new pixels have brightness values based on the difference between the brightness of the pixels compared from the two original images.

The running difference output becomes a graphic representation of the comparison, not an actual image of anything. There is no light source in a running difference image, no shadows, no mountains, valleys, or surfaces. The brighter pixels are created by the software, as are the darker pixels. This is done exclusively as a means of graphically showing the differences between two original images. And a running difference video is simply made up of a series of sequential running difference images, nothing more.
 
GeeMack said:
The running difference images Michael refers to are created by starting with two images of a particular area of the Sun taken at different times. A software program is then used to compare these images pixel by pixel. Each pixel in the first image is compared to the corresponding pixel in the second image. The result is a third image, the running difference image, where a new pixel is placed in each same space as the corresponding pixels from the original images. The new pixels have brightness values based on the difference between the brightness of the pixels compared from the two original images.

The running difference output becomes a graphic representation of the comparison, not an actual image of anything. There is no light source in a running difference image, no shadows, no mountains, valleys, or surfaces. The brighter pixels are created by the software, as are the darker pixels. This is done exclusively as a means of graphically showing the differences between two original images. And a running difference video is simply made up of a series of sequential running difference images, nothing more.
Click to expand...

"The new pixels have brightness values based on the difference between the brightness of the pixels compared from the two original images."

Depending on what the difference(adding to previous value?) is between then you would have a pixel that is slightly brighter than the previous frame.

And this would happen globally. So it would be the same image of a different brightness than the source images depending on the algorithm.

As long as the individual pixels were not processed in some way, that this process happened globally, then you would have an video that just made up the brightness differences between snapshots, or a simple form of compression.

I thought that the data was transmitted from TRACE? as running difference images. That would make sense. Why post process as RD images??
 
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