Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

No, apparently I don't have an unlimited amount of time to kill casting my scientific pearls before someone who won't even bother reading the material presented to them.


Good. Finally you've decided to give up on that crazy solid surface Sun thing. We knew you couldn't keep at it with as many people who have showed you how wrong you were for all these years. :)
 
It is not our fault that you cannot understand this physics.

What "physics" are you talking about? What is physically "reconnecting" inside the plasma if not photons that are reconnecting to charged particles (properly called induction) and particles with other particles (called plasma collisions)?
 
Good. Finally you've decided to give up on that crazy solid surface Sun thing. We knew you couldn't keep at it with as many people who have showed you how wrong you were for all these years. :)

You clearly have a serious problem comprehending the English language. How in the hell did you translate "I'm too busy to indulge your personal desires today" into "I believe I was wrong"? Are you on drugs or what?
 
I've got four or five plasma physics textbooks in my collection, two from Alfven, one from Peratt,

How open-minded. We're trying to test the hypothesis "Alfven was wrong about reconnection and thousands of mainstream plasma physicists are right". Reading Alfven's old stuff over and over isn't going to help.

one from Irving Langmuir

What? Irving Langmuir, 1881-1957, who died before the launch of Sputnik, never wrote a plasma physics textbook.

and another one who's name excapes me that had the *WORST* explanation for "magnetic reconnection" I've ever seen in print. I won't even bother to mention (or remember) the author but it wasn't Kulsrud. Care to explain how he physically explains "magnetic reconnection" for us at the level of *ACTUAL PHYSICS*?

Funny how none of the 1000-odd Ph.D. graduates of the MIT, Princeton, and Berkeley plasma physics labs had such difficulty with their textbooks.

On the other hand, I have students who (like you) will complain that some explanation or another in their physics textbook is the "worst ever". You know why that is? It's because these are my C and D students, who aren't doing the work and who don't understand the material.

The problem is with you, Michael, not with the textbook.
 
I do not believe you.

Yet you won't personally explain what's unique about magnetic reconnection, so what can I say Tim? You refuse to do the one thing I asked for and the one thing nobody has done to date.

After all, despite being given copious examples from the relevant scientific literature, you seem to have ignored them all. You even dismiss without consideration the very controlled laboratory experiments you yourself demanded, for no reason other than their disagreement with your misguided & preconceived notions.

I didn't "dismiss" any of it, I said they mislabeled the process at worst case.

How is any of that consistent with the attitude of a genuine desire to learn?

Your strawman is not consistent with a desire to learn, but then that strawman has never been my position. Whereas I have read many, many papers you folks have suggested, have you even bothered to read Cosmic Plasma or even any of the three links I posted today?

None of that is at all true either. The process has been explained to you by myself and numerous others,

Humor me. What is physically unique about it that can't also be called "circuit reconnection" or "particle reconnection" or simple "induction"?

Magnetic reconnection is a change in the topology of the magnetic field,

That's not a unique form of kinetic energy transfer Tim. That's called "induction" or particle collision depending on what you're claiming is being transferred between the "circuits/magnetic lines". That's not a scientific explanation of what is physically unique about magnetic reconnection because a short circuit in plasma produces exactly same results.

which you have already been told. The change results in a lower energy state of the field and a transfer of energy from the internal energy of the magnetic field to the kinetic energy of the particles, which you have already been told.

That is called *INDUCTION*, not magnetic reconnection Tim. Induction has a proper scientific name already. We don't need to make up a new name for a known process that has already been identified as a legitimate way to transfer kinetic energy from a field to a particle. Induction is not magnetic reconnection. If that is you "explanation" it's a major fail. You have photons transferring kinetic energy from one circuit to another and change in the *CIRCUIT TOPOLOGY* over time. There's nothing new there that warrants a new label.
 
You clearly have a serious problem comprehending the English language. How in the hell did you translate "I'm too busy to indulge your personal desires today" into "I believe I was wrong"? Are you on drugs or what?


I just noted that it's a good thing that you've finally decided you're not willing to continue bleating that crackpot solid surface Sun crap anymore. You don't have to throw a tantrum about it.
 
I just noted that it's a good thing that you've finally decided you're not willing to continue bleating that crackpot solid surface Sun crap anymore. You don't have to throw a tantrum about it.

You really do have a comprehension problem don't you?

FYI, I have far fewer doubts in the scientific validity of Birkeland's solar model today than I had say 5 years ago. I really don't have the time today to indulge you personally, but when I do have some free time I'll start a thread if you like on that topic. In the mean time, while I'm getting ready for the holidays, you're welcome to peruse my website, which I updated yesterday (and again this morning with Tim's latest link).
 
You really do have a comprehension problem don't you?

FYI, I have far fewer doubts in the scientific validity of Birkeland's solar model today than I had say 5 years ago. I really don't have the time today to indulge you personally, but when I do have some free time I'll start a thread if you like on that topic. In the mean time, while I'm getting ready for the holidays, you're welcome to peruse my website, which I updated yesterday (and again this morning with Tim's latest link).


Of course Birkeland never suggested that the Sun had a solid metal surface. So on that point your notion and his differ greatly.
 
Of course Birkeland never suggested that the Sun had a solid metal surface. So on that point your notion and his differ greatly.

Er, no. The "solid metal surface" seems to be your own personal strawman. I said "crust" which implies many things including metals.
 
Er, no. The "solid metal surface" seems to be your own personal strawman. I said "crust" which implies many things including metals.


You're a liar. Your web site says plainly "[...] it has a hard and rigid ferrite surface." And of course Birkeland never suggested the surface of the Sun was some kind of crust either. So you're wrong twice. :D
 
How open-minded. We're trying to test the hypothesis "Alfven was wrong about reconnection and thousands of mainstream plasma physicists are right". Reading Alfven's old stuff over and over isn't going to help.

In order to understand the basics of GR, I read Einstein. It's not necessary to do that of course, but it helps to understand the idea from someone that one trusts is an "expert" on the topic. Likewise when I decided to try to understand MHD theory and how it "could be" applied to cosmology, it only seemed natural to start with the guy that wrote the theory. Peratt's book seemed like a natural next step too and frankly it's better written material IMO and easier for a laymen like myself to follow.

How open minded are you folks? Have any of you actually read Cosmic Plasma for yourselves?

What? Irving Langmuir, 1881-1957, who died before the launch of Sputnik, never wrote a plasma physics textbook.

Ya, it's called The collective works of Irving Langmuir Volume 5 "Plasma And Oscillations". It seemed appropriate to "go to the horses mouth" as it relates to understanding the behaviors of plasma. It's not necessarily up to date mind you, but it's interesting reading none the less and quite informative.

Funny how none of the 1000-odd Ph.D. graduates of the MIT, Princeton, and Berkeley plasma physics labs had such difficulty with their textbooks.

Is that an appeal to authority fallacy or an appeal to popularity fallacy or both? :)

On the other hand, I have students who (like you) will complain that some explanation or another in their physics textbook is the "worst ever".

As in "non existent" at the level of actual physics in fact.

You know why that is? It's because these are my C and D students, who aren't doing the work and who don't understand the material.

The problem is with you, Michael, not with the textbook.

That could be all be true of course, but then Alfven must have also been a C and D student too because he also rejected the concept till the day of his death. If I simply lack understanding then someone here should be able to explain the unique physics behind "magnetic reconnection" and explain what is unique and different from ordinary induction and other kinetic particle interaction in plasma. So far not a peep from anyone who wasn't ultimately trying to pass off induction as "magnetic reconnection". Unless I see something useful and physically informative, I'm going to have to trust the recognized "expert" on MHD theory, the one with the Nobel prize for inventing MHD theory, and some of his first generation students, not the 1000 or so later students at various stages of underdevelopment in understanding that are still peddling something that Alfven himself referred to in a highly derogatory manner. :)

Come now Ben. If you have a physical explanation of what is unique about "magnetic reconnect", don't leave us in suspense. If your answer is the same as Tim's, then my answer will be the same as well. That is ordinary induction that Tim described, not "magnetic reconnection".
 
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You're a liar. Your web site says plainly "[...] it has a hard and rigid ferrite surface." And of course Birkeland never suggested the surface of the Sun was some kind of crust either. So you're wrong twice. :D

You take one sentence out of context and create whatever you please now don't you? Did you read anything beyond the first sentence? Did you ever bother to read those three papers I cited earlier today or is that not congruent with you ego gratification gig?
 
Reconnection is not induction

Yet you won't personally explain what's unique about magnetic reconnection, so what can I say Tim?
That's not true, and you know it. It's no wonder that people keep calling you a liar. Are you trying to add me to the list? I have already done that many times. I said it was a change in the topology of the magnetic field, and that certainly is not induction by any stretch of the imagination. Besides, induction is strictly limited by the diffusion timescale of the plasma, whereas reconnection is impulsive. The two processes are distinctly different both in theory and in practice. Impulsive energy release, such as a solar flare, is quite impossible for any induction process.

Had you bothered to read any of the source material you have been directed to (for instance the book Magnetic Reconnection by Priest & Forbes) you would already know this, since it is spelled out in detail (I would be more specific but I am 1000 miles from home and the book at the moment). That's why I say I don't believe you when you say you are really interested in learning. Anyone truly interested in learning would naturally consult the books & papers they are referred to. I see no indication that you do that. As it stands, you appear to implicitly assert that you know more about physics than everyone else, and simply ignore everything else. It should come as no great surprise that few people have confidence in your alleged expertise in this field.
 
That's not true, and you know it. It's no wonder that people keep calling you a liar.

The only think I know Tim is that what you have described could be described as "induction" and "circuit reconnection". Period. That's all I know.

I also know that there are only a few basic particles to work with in a plasma, electrons, protons, ions, and the carrier particle of the EM field, the photon. From the standpoint of physics, that's all we have to work with Tim, and that's it. What you have described isn't a new thing, it's "induction".

Are you trying to add me to the list?

Well, it would seem I already did (well, in a round about way). :)

I have already done that many times. I said it was a change in the topology of the magnetic field, and that certainly is not induction by any stretch of the imagination.

How can it be anything different?

Besides, induction is strictly limited by the diffusion timescale of the plasma, whereas reconnection is impulsive. The two processes are distinctly different both in theory and in practice. Impulsive energy release, such as a solar flare, is quite impossible for any induction process.

I take it you've never played with a coil in car before?

Had you bothered to read any of the source material you have been directed to (for instance the book Magnetic Reconnection by Priest & Forbes) you would already know this, since it is spelled out in detail (I would be more specific but I am 1000 miles from home and the book at the moment). That's why I say I don't believe you when you say you are really interested in learning. Anyone truly interested in learning would naturally consult the books & papers they are referred to.

I've done that many, many, many, many, many times now. I've lost count of how many "magnetic reconnection" papers I've been through now, and how many "textbook" descriptions I've read now. Have any of you actually read Cosmic Plasma by Alfven yet? Why wouldn't you naturally consult the guy the wrote MHD theory to see how it is "properly" applied to objects in space?

I see no indication that you do that.

Oh boloney. I've picked out flaws in PPL papers, flaws in other "magnetic reconnection" papers that tried to attribute the process to "monopoles", and a few papers that I can only describe as "circuit reconnection" in it's proper form since Birn described the "magnet line" as a steam of moving charge particles.

As it stands, you appear to implicitly assert that you know more about physics than everyone else,

Nope. I will explicitly assert that *ALFVEN* knew more about MHD theory and it's proper application to plasma an objects in space, and he vehemently rejected "magnetic reconnection" theory till the day he died. I will assert that you cannot physically explain what is unique about it because I have heard a number of attempts now and none of them come even close to being described as a unique form of energy exchange or release.

and simply ignore everything else. It should come as no great surprise that few people have confidence in your alleged expertise in this field.

It's hard for me to have much confidence in most of the so called 'experts' that peddle a concept that Alfven called pseudoscience, because in the last three or four years now I think I've met maybe one so called expert that had even read much if any of Alfven's material. I've never heard a logical explanation of 'magnetic reconnection" that could not equally or better be described as "circuit reconnection". What you are calling a change in the topology of the "magnetic field" is actually a change in the topology of two "Birkeland currents", or two ordinary current carrying filaments in light plasma. It's a short circuit in plasma, nothing more.

The other think I know is that magnetic fields form as a full and complete continuum, without beginning and without end. They are physically incapable of "disconnecting" or "reconnecting". That is standard electrical theory. That is why Alfven framed all of these events as "circuits" and describe the process in terms of "circuit energy". The only thing that is even capable of creating such powerful magnetic fields in the plasma is the fact that the plasma filament is carrying powerful currents.

Until and unless you can tell me what is physically unique about "magnetic reconnection", I can only look at the facts. Alfven rejected the idea as pseudoscience for his entire life and saw several renditions of the concept. He rejected them all as pseudoscience. That is very logical from what I've seen and read too because what is described in these papers and books can almost always (I've never seen one so far) easily explained as either induction or circuit "reconnection/reconfiguration". There's no unique process here Tim, just circuits and short circuits and changes in the topology of *ELECTRO*magnetic fields, not sterile "magnetic fields".
 
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The Real Redux.....

Here is a tutorial from “Magnetic Reconnection” Studies Conducted
at Los Alamos National Laboratory.
http://wsx.lanl.gov/Publications/RSX_rcxn_fluxropes.pdf

The first thing is Figure 1 which shows the standard explanation of a reconnection. The is drawn from a theoretical standpoint and is measured with instruments. However the instruments only measure a limited number of dimension so you have to fill in with theory.

Next we have a diagram of the experimental apparatus. A plasma chamber made of stainless steel with view ports. It also has 4 electrodes, 2 at each end.
Notice how they show the plasma emanating from the plasma guns.
Also notice how the stream coming from each electrode meets to form the classic twisted flux tube configuration which extends down the chamber to the other set of electrodes.

So this is the configuration before the reconnection event happens.
You have an electric current flowing through the plasma to form the flux tubes. So the flux tubes require an electric current to form.

What happens??

"Late time-streak and framing camera diagnostics show the Biot-Savart attraction, rotation and coalescence of the dense filaments themselves."

"Whenever the attractive force between simulation columns such that the repulsive force starts to become comparable to the attractive force, a burst in radiation occurs. For the parameters used in these simulations, this distance is of the order of several pinch radii." (Biot-Savart Law)
http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/downloadsCosmo/Peratt86TPS-I.pdf

Here is an animation of reconnection.
http://www-solar.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~eric/TALKS/BReconnection/6/index2.html

2 flux tubes touch and there is a burst of radiation.

So what happens afterward??

In the case of the magnetotail plasma filaments they reform into twisted flux tubes and the process repeats.
In the lab you only have on bank of capacitors so you are limited as to how many shots you can do in a certain time or how much energy you have available.
So bang, you fire and reconnection happens and then the flux tubes go away.

The sun doesnt seem to have this constraint so I dont think the flux tube actually ever goes away. They may just shorten for a few seconds and then re-attach.

So where does this leave us. The reconnection is powered by electric current and requires a certain configuration to happen..
The magnetic field is a result of the current flow through the flux tubes.
The magnetic field changes because there is a change in the current path(flux tubes).
 
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Your elemental abundance numbers are meaningless because they are all based upon the assumption of little or no mass separation. You seem to think Iron and Nickel are going to stay mixed together with wispy light Hydrogen and Helium. Hell, the moon can't even hang on the hydrogen that blows by it every day and it has *tons* of iron in it.

Take away your assumption that the elements stay mixed and your abundance numbers fall apart instantly.
If you put Iron and Nickel with wispy light Hydrogen and Helium into a mass separator then they aill separate. That is something a child can see. A child can also see that the Sun is not a mass separator.
A scientists thinks about the evidence of mixing in the Sun and knows that it cannot act as a mass separator.

The volcanic surface eruptions are *ACTIVE* electrically, just like eruptions here on Earth. The primary difference on the sun is the that atmosphere is mostly ionized so solid coming up from under the surface get ionized in a blaze of light and electrical discharges galore.
There are no "volcanic surface eruptions". Solar flares are *ACTIVE* electrically - not like "eruptions here on Earth" (there are no flares here on Earth).

Pfft. That's not going to cut it, not even if you toss in the electric field (as you should). There isn't enough rigid plasma in the universe to explain those energy distribution patterns...
Pfft. That's not going to cut it. There is no such thing as "rigid plasma" or no "energy distribution patterns". There are magnetic and electric fields in the universe. The activity of the coronal loop you are obsessing with looks like (to me) plasma escaping a coronal loop - a flare.

That's like claiming that thunder and photons form around magnetically active areas of the Earth's atmosphere. That a weird way to put it. It's not the magnetic field that is doing the work, it's the charge separation and current flow that is doing the work. The thunder and lightning are not "magnetic reconnection" events they are "discharge events".
(emphasis added)
That is totally stupid.
Only an idiot would claim that. Only an idiot would use that Earth's atmosphere as an analogy for the Sun.
The Earths atmosphere is not a mostly hydrogen plasma at a temperature of ~6000 K.
Lightning is not a magnetic reconnection event - it is a discharge event between the different charges in clouds and the ground.
Thunder of course is not a magnetic reconnection event.

Which of Maxwell's four basic laws allow you to "disconnect" or "reconnection" one "magnetic line" to another?
magnetic reconnection.


Sure there are. They happen here on Earth every single day. They congregate on Earth around clouds and thunderstorm clouds in particular. They also occur during volcanic events.
Wrong. There are no such things as "high energy discharge regions" *ON THE SUN*. We are talking about the Sun. See above for the idiocy of using processes on Earth as analogies for processes on the Sun.

That's the problem with "assumptions" that were made before launch. Where's your evidence those powerful coronal loops only become visible *above* the photosphere?
You mean the assumption that the laws of physics measured here on Earth also apply to the Sun?
But this is derailing the thread. Let's take this conversation to the existing conversation in: Electric universe theories here.

The images in the "iron ion wavelengths" are all of activity in the corona.
Some of the energy is indeed released in the corona, but how do you know *ALL* of what we see occurs only in the corona, and not in the chromosphere or photosphere?
Again should be in the other thread where you can start by answering:
What is the amount of 171 A light emitted by the photosphere and can it be detected? First asked 6th July 2009

To repeat what you have been told many times (so I do not expect you to understand it this time either :jaw-dropp):
The 173A passband only detects radiation from matter at a temperature of between 160,000 K and 2,000,000 K. For example this passband can detect the radiation from Fe IX ions.
The temperature of the chromosphere is "about 4500 K to as high as 20,000 K".
The temperature of the photosphere is about 6000 K.

Can you understand that 6000 K and 20,000 K are less than 160,000 K?

TRACE Passbands
pastext.gif



Er, no, that seems to be your own strawman. I simply said it has a crust and and it has an atmosphere. I didn't suggest they were the same. Some natural things like discharges occur however in *ALL* large atmosphere in the solar system, including, but not limited to the atmosphere of the sun.
Er, no, that seems to be your own delusion.
The Sun's atmnosphere is not like any "large atmosphere in the solar system". It is not a gas. It is a plasma.


That's totally bogus since I found his work only after finding satellite and nuclear chemistry data to support the theory. I was blown away with his work, and to be honest a wee disappointed that someone had "beat me to the idea by 100 years. He had even done the lab work, take the in-situ measurements to support his ideas and everything. I was literally stunned. The SOHO RD and that Doppler Image from Kosovichev on my website were what convinced me the sun had a crust. Birkeland's work was simply a bonus from my perspective.
That is exactly what I said
Nope. You are obsessed with Birkeland because you have a delusion that the Sun has a solid iron surface/crust/(thingy that you have no evidence for).
You have an idea that the sun has a crust.


You look for things to support your idea.
Your delusion is that they do support your idea.

You really don't get the "dead deity" thing do you?
I said "Your dead iron sun deity" (emphasis added).
You have a easily disproved Iron Sun idea, e.g.

It is dead. It is your personal deity. Thus it is a dead Iron Sun deity.
 
What "physics" are you talking about? What is physically "reconnecting" inside the plasma if not photons that are reconnecting to charged particles (properly called induction) and particles with other particles (called plasma collisions)?
The physics that you cannot understand are the physics of Magnetic reconnection among other fields of physics, e.g. thermodynamics:
As Tim Thompson posted:
I do not believe you. After all, despite being given copious examples from the relevant scientific literature, you seem to have ignored them all. You even dismiss without consideration the very controlled laboratory experiments you yourself demanded, for no reason other than their disagreement with your misguided & preconceived notions. How is any of that consistent with the attitude of a genuine desire to learn?



None of that is at all true either. The process has been explained to you by myself and numerous others, but you always dismiss everything that does not suit your fancy. For myself, see for instance ...
Magnetic reconnection is a change in the topology of the magnetic field, which you have already been told. The change results in a lower energy state of the field and a transfer of energy from the internal energy of the magnetic field to the kinetic energy of the particles, which you have already been told. And finally, this cannot be the result of "circuit reconnection" because it violates the conservation of energy principle, which you have already been told; after all, how can the energy of the "reconnected" circuits exceed the energy of the "reconnecting" circuits by orders of magnitude?
 
Evidently you aren't doing the right math. He was talking about auroral activity (and it's cause) during solar storms
I looked up the context of the quote in his book and you are right.
Birkeland is actually talking about "long pencils of cathode-rays" from electrical discharges from his metal globes when a magnetic field is not applied.
These discharges look a bit like sunspots when a magnetic field is applied.

Birkeland states on page 662
If the pressure of the gas is very small during these discharges, there issues (fig. 249, globe not magnetised) from each of the patches
narrow pencil of cathode-rays so intense that the gas is illuminated all along the pencil up to the wall of the tube. This splendid phenomenon
recalls our hypothesis according to which sun-spots sometimes send out into space long pencils of cathode-rays.
So he is not really talking about what we call solar flares - they are not "long pencils" of particles as Birkeland must have known.

Someone like you who knows such a lot about experimental physics (:rolleyes:) will instantly see the defect in Birkeland's analysis of his experiments. Figs 248 and 249 should give you a clue. You will need to know some basic electromagnetism.

I do not think, however, that Schuster's objections have any serious bearing on my theory, if we consiider the properties which the new sunbeams must be assumed to possess.
I have shown that cathode-rays from the sun, which are to strike down towards the earth in the Aurora polaris zones, must have a transversal mass about m = 1.83 X 10^3 X m . In other words, the longitudinal mass of our particles is 6 milliard times greater than the mass of the particles upon which Schuster calculates in his energy-comments. Thus these cathode-rays will pass the earth, not with a velocity of 9 kilometres, but with a velocity very little short of that of light.
Birkeland is stating that the cathode-rays (electrons) will pass the Earth with a velocity very little short of the speed of light. He is wrong as we now know that
  1. There are no electrical discharges on the Sun. Sunspots are primarily magnetic phenomena.
  2. The Sun emits protons and electrons.
  3. Their velocity is much less than the speed of light.
As for your link - the speed of particles in solar storms is typically much less than the speed of light.
Solar flare: "Most proton storms take two or more hours from the time of visual detection to reach Earth's orbit. A solar flare on January 20, 2005 released the highest concentration of protons ever directly measured,[3] taking only 15 minutes after observation to reach Earth, indicating a velocity of approximately one-half light speed.".

This was a A New Kind of Solar Storm and not typical of solar storms. It was the only storm of this type to be confirmed in 2005 (a proton storm in February 1956 is suspected to be similiar).
 
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I also know that there are only a few basic particles to work with in a plasma, electrons, protons, ions, and the carrier particle of the EM field, the photon. From the standpoint of physics, that's all we have to work with Tim, and that's it. What you have described isn't a new thing, it's "induction".

This is dumb. Sure, the anything going on in any plasma (reconnection, or Alfven waves, or shock acceleration, or or the two-stream instability---or, heck, Faraday rotation, cyclotron radiation, dispersion, whatever) is the interaction of charges and field via Maxwell's Equations. In that sense, reconnection is "just" particles responding to Maxwell's Equations, including induction.

It's a particular aspect of these equations, describing a certain behavior under certain initial conditions. This behavior has a name, "reconnection", just as "cyclotron radiation" and "relativistic shock acceleration" and "Alfven waves" have names. Physicists are not so childish as to insist that all of these names be ignored because they're "just Maxwell's Equations". Please stop insisting that reconnection is "just" induction. It sort of is (it's induction+Coulomb's Law+Ampere's Law) but only in this childish sense.

If you insist on this childishness, I suppose we can do the same with all of your preferred plasma terminology. Goodbye to "Birkeland currents", and indeed to "currents", "circuits", "double layers"---they're all just charges and fields.

Anyway, I'm glad you have backed off from the nonsensical view that reconnection somehow violates Maxwell's Equations, which IIRC was your view for a long time because you thought reconnection involved broken field lines.
 

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