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School bullies many years later.

Erhm...she sounds like she was a despicable human being. Good that nothing good came to her. Normally I'd say that it is wonderful she ended up so badly in life but the reason she did was because she has an autistic son.

That's a pain I wouldn't wish on anyone. Not to mention what the poor son must suffer. Karma would be if she had a mental disorder and no one else had to suffer because of it. And the reason she is down and out is because, like a good and loving mother, she takes care of him. Which shows you she might have been terrible to you at the time but she isn't a terrible person now. She needn't have done that. She could have stuck him in a home somewhere or abandoned him or dumped him on a relative.
 
Cainkane1:

There's a very interesting article in this month's Atlantic called "Orchid Children" which is not actually about the bullies, but touches on that.

I recommend it to you.

It has some interesting views on the genetic underpinnings of the bully's psychological makeup. And yes, that psychology puts them at high risk for the kinds of deaths you describe.

It's basically a combination of faulty impulse control, a brain that gets a rush from risk-taking, hair-trigger aggression, and a severe deficiency in the faculties that allow us to interpret social and emotional cues from other people.

Bullies tend to live their lives in a state of continual psychological stress, to repeatedly put themselves in dangerous situations, and to fail to care for their health.
Well a punk who abused his two sisters once got what was comming to him. When the girls could get away from him they moved over 60 miles away. Ok so he was on a motorcycle and he liked to speed. He lost control and he broke both legs and he walks with a permanent limp. His parents went to live near their daughters. He lives alone.
 
Became a heroin user, with associated methods for gathering money, including but not limited to prostitution and stealing from friends. Has since been on the methadone program and is wondering why so many bridges are burnt.

You know what I blame this on the collapse of? Society.
 
Cainkane1:

There's a very interesting article in this month's Atlantic called "Orchid Children" which is not actually about the bullies, but touches on that.

I recommend it to you.

It has some interesting views on the genetic underpinnings of the bully's psychological makeup. And yes, that psychology puts them at high risk for the kinds of deaths you describe.

That's very interesting. "Bully" as a genetic disorder? That has never occurred to me.

It's basically a combination of faulty impulse control, a brain that gets a rush from risk-taking, hair-trigger aggression, and a severe deficiency in the faculties that allow us to interpret social and emotional cues from other people.

This explains very neatly the bully's need to control others. If they don't understand the social cues of the people around them, they can relieve the stress by taking charge of all their interactions. They can reduce the social cues of others to simple expressions of fear, something they can understand.

Bullies tend to live their lives in a state of continual psychological stress, to repeatedly put themselves in dangerous situations, and to fail to care for their health.

I've also never put together the bullying with premature death. I've always assumed that the stories about bullies whose lives ended badly were anecdotal yarns we tell each other to feel better about the "balance" in the Universe.
 
I'd say 2/3 of the football players at my high school were casual bullies. Other sports, not so much. Most of the "full time" bullies seemed to fall into the poor-social-skills category.

Once I left my high school I never looked back. I have no desire to.

Amen, brother!

Not really. It's often the popular people who do the bullying, as well as the so-called normal people. It's all about the pecking order.

Youd be right. There were plenty of times I wanted to say something but the attention was on the victim and I was just glad it wasn't me. These people do their cruelties because they enjoy what they do. its a hobby to them. They can be strong or not so strong. They can be a genius or a retard. I knew plenty of low lifes in school growing up and they came from all socioeconomic backgrounds. Sometimes they get whats comming to them and sometimes they live to be a hundred and die rich. There is no karmic cosmic justice except the justice time and bad judgement sometimes metes out to them.


Big agree to these posts.
 
Erhm...she sounds like she was a despicable human being. Good that nothing good came to her. Normally I'd say that it is wonderful she ended up so badly in life but the reason she did was because she has an autistic son.
...
I know, and I feel thoroughly chastised for even mentioning her

The 'Karmic' issue comes in because she refused to consider a mere 'spaz' worthy of her royal presence, yet she now lives with and cares for a type of person that she would have been mortified to be seen with in her youth. Not to mention that her once ravishing beauty is now but a dim memory.

She's the only one of the bullies that I've mentioned for whom I feel no smug sense of 'justice' having been served, only sadness.

:(
 
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I know, and I feel thoroughly chastised for even mentioning her

The 'Karmic' issue comes in because she refused to consider a mere 'spaz' worthy of her royal presence, yet she now lives with and cares for a type of person that she would have been mortified to be seen with in her youth. Not to mention that her once ravishing beauty is now but a dim memory.

She's the only one of the bullies that I've mentioned for whom I feel no smug sense of 'justice' having been served, only sadness.

:(

Moral of the story:
For good people, revenge isn't sweet; it's sad. Be careful when you wish for justice. If you let yourself be close enough to the result, it won't make you happy.
 
I only had to put up with one major bully, but it was really bad. I actually contemplated killing him. I really wanted to, but wasnt brave enough. It continued for years. Our final clash came unplanned, and im really happy today that i didnt have anything but fists and bare feet and a murderous rage to use on him. It wasnt a fight, really. He just tried to flee and didnt even try to fight back once he was on the ground, just curled up on his knees to protect himself. That episode changed our relation totally. Not that we became best friends, but he got the respect for me that a beaten dog has for its owner. He sucked up to me, and i was allways nice to him, even hanged out with him occasionally.

Our lifes went on, he continued his wreckless lifestyle, fighting, drunk driving, drugs. But our relationship never turned sour again.

Today, some 25 years later, he is dying from cancer. Could be any day now. I have nothing but empathy for him, and wish i could do something.
 
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A big chunk of my schooldays were made a misery by one particular lad. I didn't see him for years during university and stuff, but ran into him again playing rugby when he lined up for the opposition. He didn't recognise me at first, because he probably never really who I was before and also because I'd grown seriously taller and bulked up enormously during my late teens, but he certainly knew who I was 45 seconds into the game. My first hit on him provoked a 30-man brawl and earned me ten minutes in the sin bin, but it was worth it.

Years afterwards I saw him at a mutual friend's wedding and we had a pint together. He said that if someone like me could bear a grudge for so long, he'd obviously been a right little bastard when he was younger.
 
That's often the problem...only NICE people have empathy.

Not so. define nice, empathy.

There are (usually) nice people with little empathy (my father), and rather curmudgeonly, reclusive people with great antennae. (me)

By definition, autistic people tend to lack empathy, or a theory of others' minds, but they are often nice, if they aren't in distress about something.

I almost always can read other people's emotions and intentions in person; it's rather overwhelming and often unpleasant to me. I wouldn't claim this without other people also saying this about me.

Just because I can read those emotions doesn't mean I enjoy being around them.



The Wiki, which is always right, says "Empathy is a concept with many different definitions. They cover a broad spectrum, ranging from feeling a concern for other people that creates a desire to help them, experiencing emotions that match another person’s emotions, knowing what the other person is thinking or feeling, to blurring the line between self and other."
 
What an interesting thread.

I wonder if there really is some link between agressive school behaviour/bullying and shortened life span?

Some of the theories here seem quite sound - poor judgement, no impulse control, no self-control, risk takers, poor social skills...

A lot of the traits of your classic bully are actually pretty dangerous survival-wise. I love the JREF - always another interesting thread round the corner.

Be a fascinating study for someone with a lot of time on their hands and a Facebook account.
 
I know, and I feel thoroughly chastised for even mentioning her

The 'Karmic' issue comes in because she refused to consider a mere 'spaz' worthy of her royal presence, yet she now lives with and cares for a type of person that she would have been mortified to be seen with in her youth. Not to mention that her once ravishing beauty is now but a dim memory.

She's the only one of the bullies that I've mentioned for whom I feel no smug sense of 'justice' having been served, only sadness.

:(
I wouldn't be sorry for mentioning her. I'm sorry about her son but she does deserve a measure of justice for deliberatley making a young impressionable boy feel humiliated. She had no reason or right to speak that way to you.

The real victim is her son. The boy has enough problems already without having to deal with a mean minded bag like his mother obviously is.
 
I only had to put up with one major bully, but it was really bad. I actually contemplated killing him. I really wanted to, but wasnt brave enough. It continued for years. Our final clash came unplanned, and im really happy today that i didnt have anything but fists and bare feet and a murderous rage to use on him. It wasnt a fight, really. He just tried to flee and didnt even try to fight back once he was on the ground, just curled up on his knees to protect himself. That episode changed our relation totally. Not that we became best friends, but he got the respect for me that a beaten dog has for its owner. He sucked up to me, and i was allways nice to him, even hanged out with him occasionally.

Our lifes went on, he continued his wreckless lifestyle, fighting, drunk driving, drugs. But our relationship never turned sour again.

Today, some 25 years later, he is dying from cancer. Could be any day now. I have nothing but empathy for him, and wish i could do something.
I never hung around with any bully. At least not deliberately until recently. I do converse with a former school bully but he never bullied me and I want to see what makes him tick. His complete total and utter lack of understanding of what I'm talking even at his age of 62 intrigues me.

When he described to me the time he carved his initials in a guys forehead I asked him what brought that on. He didn't say anything.

After a fashion he is bullying me. He didn't do it in school but now that he's old and sick and weak and probably near dying I think he enjoys my confusion when I try without success to tell him how bad some of the things he and his friends did were. He isn't stupid; he's crazy. Theres a difference.

I talk to him every time I go into my very excellant bar. The bar has a great beer selection of beers from all over the world and excellant microbrews. He's a Budweiser man. Either that or pabst and he makes fun of me when I drink my Stella Artois or my Samuel Adams or whatever other excellant brew I may be drinking. He told me Pilsner Urquel stank.

I put up with him. He can't beat me up anymore and my small kindnesses towards him confuse him to pieces.
 
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...
When he described to me the time he carved his initials in a guys forehead I asked him what brought that on. He didn't say anything.

...

:jaw-dropp

Oh. When you're talking bullies Cainkane1, you're really talking bullies--possibly even real psychopaths.

I don't get out much, I guess.
 
A big chunk of my schooldays were made a misery by one particular lad. I didn't see him for years during university and stuff, but ran into him again playing rugby when he lined up for the opposition. He didn't recognise me at first, because he probably never really who I was before and also because I'd grown seriously taller and bulked up enormously during my late teens, but he certainly knew who I was 45 seconds into the game. My first hit on him provoked a 30-man brawl and earned me ten minutes in the sin bin, but it was worth it.

Years afterwards I saw him at a mutual friend's wedding and we had a pint together. He said that if someone like me could bear a grudge for so long, he'd obviously been a right little bastard when he was younger.
Hed be right. Recreational torment isn't something to be proud of.
 
My oldest brother was a greaser king type in high school, in the 50's. His buddies leaned to hoodlumness, and they stole hub-caps and cigarettes and booze and such. I was 5 years younger, and pretty dorky.

If they even caught site of me, I knew I was in for a hassle. If I 'squeeled' to mom, I was in for a beating. This helped me in many ways. I learned to be stealthy and started to learn wrestling and gymnastics. By the time I was 16, I could have kicked their asses, and they never bothered me again.

I have a debt to them.
 
My oldest brother was a greaser king type in high school, in the 50's. His buddies leaned to hoodlumness, and they stole hub-caps and cigarettes and booze and such. I was 5 years younger, and pretty dorky.

If they even caught site of me, I knew I was in for a hassle. If I 'squeeled' to mom, I was in for a beating. This helped me in many ways. I learned to be stealthy and started to learn wrestling and gymnastics. By the time I was 16, I could have kicked their asses, and they never bothered me again.

I have a debt to them.

Your post hits mostly on what I would say. The bullies made me get a little tougher and a little stronger and curbed my occasional acid tongue. I realized as I got older that there are many ways of putting people down, and that I was often getting myself in trouble with wise-ass comments.

More on-topic, I know a guy who freely admits that he was a bully when he was a kid. His parents got divorced when he was 12, and he took it out on the world. He regrets it, but I will add that he's never really gotten his temper under control. Every place he's lived in has had a couple of battered-in bits of drywall about fist level.
 
It's taken me a little while to respond to this thread because bullying is such an issue with me. I grew up in a house with an older sibling who is a bully and was bullied in both elementary and junior high school.

The junior high experience was a real psychological horror, with a denouement that's worth thinking about.

I transferred to this suburban school from a city school. I had spent 7th grade just trying to survive. I was beaten up for lunch money and the school was totally out of control. My grades had plummeted to C's and D's and my parents decided to move out of that school district. This was not their only reason for moving, but it was a big part of it.Two years later, there was a major scandal about the open drug usage (bearing in mind this was 1966) and violence in the school I had left.

I then went to a school where all the girls were perfectly groomed and the boys seemed very savvy, to this geeky, chubby city girl. Because I had such terrible grades, they put me into a remedial class, instead of the accelerated class I had been in before. And that's where I ran into Susan. I have no memory of what started it, but she, and the posse that she led, bullied, harassed, and once or twice physically assaulted me. My parents came to speak to the guidance counselor, but he was no help. I grimly set to work to bring my grades back up so I could be in a better class, but it was uphill work. This wasn't because the work was hard, indeed I had learned it all the year before. It was because every step of the way, Susan was there.

One incident I remember most sharply, and it's going to sound very innocuous. After gym class, and gym class was nothing short of torture, we got back into our school clothes and stood by the door until released. I got there first and Susan second. There was a song popular then by the Boxtops, "The Letter." Susan had made up new words to it, each a vicious insult about me. She sang it loudly and proudly. And I might add, the teachers did nothing, even though they were there. To this day, if that song comes on the radio, I switch it off and sometimes start shaking, feeling trapped again with her voice ringing out.

Well, I succeeded in 9th grade in being placed in a much better class where I made some good friends and was able to relax a little. I still saw Susan in the hallways, but was able to avoid any real contact. Plus by that time she had moved on to the next victim. To my great relief, we were assigned to different high schools.

About a year and a half later, I became quite ill one night with what we now know was a gall bladder attack. My mother was sitting by my bed and trying to get in touch with the doctor, because she wanted me in the hospital. The radio was on and there was news of an accident. A group of six or seven high school kids had been joyriding on Northern Parkway. Their car flew off the overpass and landed on top of another car on the Jones Falls Expressway. The driver of the car beneath was killed; he was one of my school mate's father who owned a car dealership and had been on the way home from work. Two of the kids in their car were killed, one of whom was riding in the trunk and the other in the back seat. The girl in the back seat was Susan.

I had a high temperature and the world had already taken on a sense of unreality. Hearing that added another layer of surrealism, and I thought perhaps I had imagined it. But it was true. I am ashamed to say that I felt a strong sense of relief, although no joy in her death. I remember my mother grieving for her parents.

Fast forward 30 years.

While out running errands one day, I decided on a whim to have my nails done. This is unusual for me--I'm not usually a manicured person, but hey, it was a treat. I stopped in a salon and their manicurist was indeed free. I sat down and she looked at me. "I know you from somewhere," she said. I'm used to this. I have one of those faces that everyone seems to know, and I smiled and nodded. "No, really," she said. "Where did you go to high school?" I told her and she shook her head. Then, "Where did you go to junior high?" "Old Court." She sat back in her chair and said my name.

Then she said her name, and I realized she was one of the main girls in Susan's posse, who had actively taken part in bullying me. I swallowed hard, and said yes, that's who I was.

"I've thought about you," she said. "I'm so sorry for what we did." I accepted her apology and we both relaxed a little.

I said, "I remember so clearly when Susan was killed." She said, "How much do you know about Susan's life?"

"Nothing."

Susan was raised by a single mother, her and her brother and sister. Her mother had one philosophy about child rearing. Make no rules and therefore no rules can be broken. Susan and her siblings came and went when they pleased. They did drugs in the house and had wild parties. Their mother either did not care or was incapable of setting limits or disciplining. Susan was a child in search of her limits, and no one, not her one parent, not the teachers, no one gave them to her. Throughout elementary and junior high school, she became wilder and wilder. Then in high school, my manicurist decided she had had enough and joined a new crowd, leaving her lifelong friend behind.

The last time she spoke to Susan, Susan commented that she was getting tired of the wild life and was going to settle down a bit and work at her studies. She was just going out that night for one last party with her friends.

And indeed, it was her last party. Her brother died of a drug overdose a year later. Her sister took the lessons from her two sad siblings and straightened out her life

And finally, I was able to feel pity for this child, who was never loved enough to be taught how to take care of herself.
 

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