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Hardfire: Physics of 9/11

Baffles are generally just to break up the flow and reduce slosh inertia. The total inertia of a whole bunch of fluid flowing unimpeded is a major headache. (I did RTLS slosh analysis for the STS--jettisoning the external tank and landing the shuttle with fuel left in the External Tank has its problems...)
ETA: Baffles don't PREVENT flow--they simply slow it down and break it up
 
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Most of the broken columns were sheared off clean without being pushed in at all. How did the aluminum wings do that?
...
It is called physics of a 590 mph aircraft impact. The wing is very strong it flies at 600 mph. The building can't do 600 mph, the best the building can do is a Hurricane, I have yet to find a 600 mph hurricane.

Plane can withstand 600 mph PLUS wind; building does 200 mph wind. Now we have the mass of an aircraft flying at 590 mph (velocity squared comes to mind, but you don't want physics you want woo) impacting a building that can with stand a plane flying 180 to 200 mph; the plane breaks into the building damaging connections and the steel sections fail. Simple physics and you are arguing assumptions made by NIST?

So how does aluminum wings damage other objects? Aluminum wings have cut steel cables and survived. The aluminum wings can do .9 MACH and not fall apart. You are trying to say an aluminum wing can't damage a steel building? This is nonsense.

What did the damage in not 175 super non-physics person? What did the damage we saw done by Flight 175 in real time with eyes, video, and confirmed by science which is not needed since we saw Flight 175 do the damage.

Before you continue tilting at windmills review E=1/2MV2
 
I've proved my case. The damage is not consistent with the known fuel load travelling at 500mph




Please refer to Figure 4-34 on page 97 and Figure 4-35 on page 88 of NCSTAR 1-2B.




This is an interesting question, but not relevant to the Hardfire Physics of 9/11 show. The structure of the aircraft was disregarded in the model that was presented there.




It's clear from this that you don't know how a baffle rib works. NIST: "The terrorist pilots likely performed extreme flight maneuvers prior to impact, causing most of the fuel to flow inboard." (page 88)




You need to take this up with NIST.




I've yet to see a model claiming to show that the empty portion of the wing could break through the columns. I wonder why...




The model fails. It's supposed to prove that fuel alone could have caused the observed damage. Now the wing itself is being brought in without any calculations to support the conclusion. Following the scientific method, the model should be scrapped.

From NCSTAR 1-2 Chapter 4, it was assumed for Flt 11 that the nominal case was full fuel tanks inboard of Baffle Rib 18. That does not mean there was no fuel outboard, and their engineering models accounted for these issues in great detail.

'A small amount of fuel was outboard of this rib for AA flight 11. p88

NIST carefully calibrated their models based on the observed damage to the building structure

'Damage to the exterior wall was observed all the way out to the wing tips, but the exterior columns were not completely failed in the outer wing and vertical stabilizer impact regions.'
Chapter 9.4.1, p208

What you really need to pay attention to is figure 9-8 (p 209) which shows the differences between the damage calculated by the model vs the actual observed damage (of exterior structure).

NCSTAR1-2damage.jpg
 
I have flown thousand of hours in Boeing Heavy Jets, as a pilot and instructor since 1976. I have known how baffles work before you ever had your first moronic delusions about 911. (I am an engineer, a trained accident investigator, a ATP rated pilot

What have you done Bardamu,apart from sitting behind your computer watching youtube?
 
I have flown thousand of hours in Boeing Heavy Jets, as a pilot and instructor since 1976. I have known how baffles work before you ever had your first moronic delusions about 911. (I am an engineer, a trained accident investigator, a ATP rated pilot, you may of missed my point which was as valid as the NIST assumptions; BUT it makes no difference you can't change the damage done by Flight 175, it really happened the way we see on video; does not matter where the fuel was) The very fact you quibble about small details why avoiding your final futility of your conclusions is proof you have nothing. (clue..)

You are the ones who demanded that Tony Szamboti withdraw his paper because the antenna of the north tower may or may not have tilted slightly before dropping, and now you accuse me of quibbling over small details. What entitles debunkers to sketch up a model on the back of an envelope, assume whatever they like, simplify as much as they like, state that it's definitive proof, then wave off any criticism by saying it was just an illustration?


I read the NIST report and saw there is only one tank as you messed up your model and called the wing tank two tanks. You are confused or sloppy.

The NIST fuel model is an assumption did a Boeing engineer sign off on the assumption? What is the rate of transfer at the baffle? If you want to quibble about fuel bring on the facts and stop confusing the tank as two tanks; your model suffers.

The important point is that the baffle rib allows the fuel to flow into the inboard side and stops it flowing back into the outboard side. You're implying that NIST's assumption is wrong. What makes you think their other assumptions are right?


The best part is a model stands on it's own, you are hung up on attacking Mackey and fail to realize the hole in the WTC is the product of Flight 175 impacting at up-to 590 mph.

Do you understand models?
You are saying the outer section of the wing did something without fuel in it; SO? By pursuing this idiotic quest you prove you lack of knowledge in science.

The model in question doesn't stand on its own. It needs the wing structure to break some of the columns. The wing structure alone has not been modelled and you're just assuming it would break the columns.


It is impossible to have fuel flying along at 590 mph all by itself for very long. But with models we can do almost anything we want. By modeling the fuel by itself I assume (NIST made assumptions to model stuff too - I can see you have fodder to keep your delusions happy for a long time) it is a container of zero mass to keep it ready to hit something. I can do this it is my model. For a truther not to have the capability of understanding a model yet fall for no-planes, thermite, beam weapons and more outrageous claptrap is sad their imagination fails to make the transition to REALITY.

For the fuel to break the columns, it would have to be in a container that is strong enough to withstand the impact. We don't have to worry about that though, since some of the broken columns couldn't have been hit by fuel at all.


I can't waste time (oops I failed) on your failure; you are attacking a model with assumptions made by NIST. ?? You don't even accept NIST as being correct anyway so your attack is based on your own failed delusions. It makes my head hurt as I try to think of how ironic your attack on Mackey is. WWSD? Wait, WWMSD!~ LOL

Many people here have told me to read the NIST reports and now I use them as a source you claim their assumptions are wrong. Well, it suits me either way. If you are wrong, I win the argument. If NIST are wrong, that's even better.
 
From NCSTAR 1-2 Chapter 4, it was assumed for Flt 11 that the nominal case was full fuel tanks inboard of Baffle Rib 18. That does not mean there was no fuel outboard, and their engineering models accounted for these issues in great detail.

'A small amount of fuel was outboard of this rib for AA flight 11. p88

NIST carefully calibrated their models based on the observed damage to the building structure

'Damage to the exterior wall was observed all the way out to the wing tips, but the exterior columns were not completely failed in the outer wing and vertical stabilizer impact regions.'
Chapter 9.4.1, p208

What you really need to pay attention to is figure 9-8 (p 209) which shows the differences between the damage calculated by the model vs the actual observed damage (of exterior structure).

[qimg]http://i900.photobucket.com/albums/ac206/alienentity1/NCSTAR1-2damage.jpg[/qimg]

Yes, I've been using the top diagram showing the observed damage. The black dashes show the damaged areas where columns are not broken. You can see that a section of the right wing that was carrying no fuel would have to break through columns, a spandrel and a concrete floor.
 
Could someone please explain to Bardamu what a model is? He doesn't seem to be able to distinguish between a model and an exact working scale replica with moving parts (some assembly required, batteries not included).

No one is going to "abandon" a model for not exactly replicating what happened. We've seen a comparison and it's almost uncanny how well it represents the actual damage. Until someone presents a better model why would the old one be scrapped?
 
Could someone please explain to Bardamu what a model is? He doesn't seem to be able to distinguish between a model and an exact working scale replica with moving parts (some assembly required, batteries not included).

No one is going to "abandon" a model for not exactly replicating what happened. We've seen a comparison and it's almost uncanny how well it represents the actual damage. Until someone presents a better model why would the old one be scrapped?

The model doesn't even come close to representing the damage. Most of the fuel was in the area behind the engine, so the columns that would be hit by that section of wing would already have been pushed in before the fuel could hit them. At the same time, many columns that were broken could not have been hit by fuel at all because sections of the tanks were empty. Simplification and gross distortion of the facts are two different things.

You say the model can't be scrapped until a better one is put in its place. What makes you think a model is necessary in the first place? I'd be interested to know exactly what you think the model proves and how it adds to our understanding of the 9/11 plane crashes.
 
bardamu will soon be presenting his competing model. Any time now.

If planes hit the towers on 9/11, the government wouldn't have to rely on con artists to fix the data and produce bogus papers and models. After 8 years, we should have seen at least one honest piece of academic work. Considering the standard so far, they'd have been better off just ignoring the subject.
 
If planes hit the towers on 9/11...


There is no "if" about this. Only the truly delusional (like that Ace Baker fellow) could possibly believe otherwise, and Baker didn't even have the courage of his alleged convictions when he was invited to go to downtown Manhattan to discuss his "no plane" theories with people there. Don't you think it's odd that he said on the Hardfire show that he wanted to talk to people who saw the planes, but then when he was given the opportunity to do so, he adamantly refused?
 
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The model doesn't even come close to representing the damage. Most of the fuel was in the area behind the engine, so the columns that would be hit by that section of wing would already have been pushed in before the fuel could hit them. At the same time, many columns that were broken could not have been hit by fuel at all because sections of the tanks were empty. Simplification and gross distortion of the facts are two different things.

You say the model can't be scrapped until a better one is put in its place. What makes you think a model is necessary in the first place? I'd be interested to know exactly what you think the model proves and how it adds to our understanding of the 9/11 plane crashes.

What do you mean it doesn't come close? The observed and that estimated by the SAP model are almost identical. Given the variables and the degree of error in the measurment I find it acceptable. Personally I find it amazing, but you don't so I'm willing to tone it down to acceptable.

What it does is show the model is behaving as we would expect. If they ran the model and came up with very little damage there's reason for concern. Same thing if it showed too much. It serves as a way to tune the model based on the visual evidence. It's essential to do this as there's no visual evidence of the damage to the core. That damage has to be extrapolated from the simulation. I thinks it's reasonable to assume NIST did a decent job recreating what happened to the core based on what they did with the exterior.

It's one thing to line up a shot and close your eyes and another to walk up to the table blindfolded and shoot.
 
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If planes hit the towers on 9/11, ...
Great, no skills in physics and models so post a lie. If no planes hit the towers there would be no jet fuel fireball. Use some logic and get back on topic before posting pure delusional poppycock.
wtc2impact.jpg

There is only one thing that could make this event. You see a 2093 pounds of TNT kinetic energy impact and the resultant jet fuel fireball from 66,000 pounds of jet fuel.

No model is needed to prove what happen on 911. The models were only used to support the goals of NIST. NIST was not out to prove terrorists did 911. You waste time cherry picking things from NIST try for a broader understanding.

As you move further off topic you might consider taking a physics course so you could do better than post lies and failed ideas.
 
Is this guy a no planer? You'd have to be pretty gullible to fall for the lamest conspiracy ever. It's sad to think anyone is this weak minded they have no critical thinking skills whatsoever. Welcome to imagination run wild.
 
Bardamu - Can you explain how a ball of meat is able to peirce aluminum, fiberglass and/or composites?

BirdStrike.bmp


Once you understand this, you will understand how aluminum can damage steel.
 
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Is this guy a no planer? You'd have to be pretty gullible to fall for the lamest conspiracy ever. It's sad to think anyone is this weak minded they have no critical thinking skills whatsoever. Welcome to imagination run wild.

are you shocked? jedi mind tricks work on these people and there is only one kind of person they work on.
 

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