Runaway car - Is this feasible?

[lionking]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-ne...-tape-released-20091215-kuk8.html?autostart=1

Any auto mechanics here? This guy claims that his car was stuck in cruise control and whatever he did, like stomp on the brakes, move the gear stick etc., simply didn't work - oh until he got to the end of the freeway. Ford has effectively called him a liar, and a comment from a professor in the field:

Professor John Price, former lecturer in automotive risk analysis at Monash University and consultant to the automotive industry, said he thought the incident was "extremely rare, otherwise we would have started hearing court cases about it by now".
"I can assure you companies like Ford spend a lot of effort going through every possible safety event, and this would be one of them. Something has happened here that they didn’t pick up in all their safety testing," he said.

My take? There are speed cameras on EastLink and I think he went past one speeding. What to do? Pretend he had no control and it wasn't his fault.

Yeah, probably uncharitable at this time of the year, but FWIW most radio callers think there's something fishy here.

Any thoughts?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Can't you always cut the ignition? Also surely, the CC does not control the brakes, so braking hard should stall the engine and stop the car.

Of course, I drive a stick so all I need is step on the clutch, should my CC try to take over .



Hans

 

[lionking]

The point about cutting the ignition is that it would then disable power steering, breaking, stability control etc, or so I understand.

 

[Syameese]

The point about cutting the ignition is that it would then disable power steering, breaking, stability control etc, or so I understand.

disable them yes, make the steering and brakes unuseable no. IMO this is either a complete fabrication or the person involved is such a product of the nanny state that he couldn't deal with a non perfect situation.

Of course, if it proves to be the case then it is something we need to deal with, but on the basis of the reports I have seen so far it sounds like a beat up

 

[383LQ4SS]

Its BS to claim nothing could be done. It could be true that he didnt try everything due to panic.

If it was a manual tranny...just push the clutch in.
If its an auto tranny...put it in nuetral

Brakes will work on all but the most powerful cars...assuming your at wide open throttle. The limited throttle of CC should be easy to overcome in nearly any car provided the brakes are in working order.

Last thing is to turn the key off (not all the way or the steering lock may lock the wheel)

I have been stuck at WOT while driving a 800hp vehicle....after completing the race...I just turned the ignition key off and coasted to a stop.

 

[Salerio]

The point about cutting the ignition is that it would then disable power steering, breaking, stability control etc, or so I understand.

I'm calling 'fake' on this one too. Power steering is good when you're maneuvering, but not really needed at speed, and the better power steering systems are graduated, so they don't have an effect at high speed and maximum effect at stationary to keep feedback in the steering wheel.

Same goes for the brake servos, losing the servos makes the brakes heavier, but they still work, and the hand/parking brake is purely manual anyway.

Finally these things are run from the engine, turning off the ignition won't stop the engine turning so the compressors to run all the servos will still be powered up. We had a similar case here (UK) a few years ago, the guy was on telly milking it for all it's worth then when the fuss had died down the police just quietly arrested him.

 

[richardm]

The point about cutting the ignition is that it would then disable power steering, breaking, stability control etc, or so I understand.

You can still steer and brake without having the engine on; it just takes more effort (a lot more, in the case of brakes, but they still work). And most cars don't have stability control anyway. So long as you kill the ignition but don't turn the key so far that the steering lock can engage, you should be fine.

Hans - it was an automatic car though; I wonder which would win if you stood on the brakes with the engine still trying to drive the wheels?

(I also don't believe this guy's story)

Edit: since I apparently type slowly - seems the brakes would win, eh?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Hans - it was an automatic car though; I wonder which would win if you stood on the brakes with the engine still trying to drive the wheels?

(I also don't believe this guy's story)

Edit: since I apparently type slowly - seems the brakes would win, eh?

I understant it was automatic. Still, CC can't normally apply full throttle, so brakes should win. Of course, a malfuntioning CC might open it up all the way (that is actually a quite plausible failure mode: The servo simply going all the way in on direction), but on normal cars, brakes should still be the strongest. - And there's still the ignition.

Hans

 

[383LQ4SS]

I understant it was automatic. Still, CC can't normally apply full throttle, so brakes should win. Of course, a malfuntioning CC might open it up all the way (that is actually a quite plausible failure mode: The servo simply going all the way in on direction), but on normal cars, brakes should still be the strongest. - And there's still the ignition.

Hans

And nuetral

 

[gumboot]

My take? There are speed cameras on EastLink and I think he went past one speeding. What to do? Pretend he had no control and it wasn't his fault

Doesn't cruise control just keep the car to the speed you set it at? In other words, if he got snapped speeding it means he set his cruise control too high anyway...

I suspect you've got the right of it...

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

I seem to recall something like this happening a year or two back, overseas. Some fella got his cruise control stuck to full throttle on the autobahn. TV footage of him going through a toll booth barrier at 100 MPH. The initial response of the car company was to deny that it could happen, but if I recall, they did eventually find a subtle fault in the software. That's not to say that a clever, non-panicked individual couldn't think of plenty of ways to stop a vehicle with a stuck throttle, but I do have some sympathy for those who aren't thinking clearly at that particular moment.

A

 

[a_unique_person]

According to reports.

He called Ford and the Police. They advised him to turn off the ignition, and put the car into neutral. The software over rode his ability to do so. He could not put it into neutral, nor turn off the ignition. He was talking to them and doing what they said. I can't believe it was something to dodge a fine, he nearly lost his life.

 

[McHrozni]

The point about cutting the ignition is that it would then disable power steering, breaking, stability control etc, or so I understand.

Brakes would still work. Some Citroën cars might have a problem with hydraulics, but all other cars are either mechanics or, more commonly, servo-assisted mechanics (like power steering), which would make the breaks harder to operate, but functional. Furthermore, hand brake is called an auxiliary brake for a reason, and it too is mechanic in all cars that I know of.
In short, there is no reason to expect these systems wouldn't work.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

According to reports.

He called Ford and the Police. They advised him to turn off the ignition, and put the car into neutral. The software over rode his ability to do so. He could not put it into neutral, nor turn off the ignition. He was talking to them and doing what they said. I can't believe it was something to dodge a fine, he nearly lost his life.

I don't know about a particular car, but wouldn't turning the key and pulling it out kill the ignition? If the car uses a keycard rather than a key, that might be a problem, or not, depending on how that works.

McHrozni

 

[MRC_Hans]

Obviously, a CC can malfunction, and possible failure modes are, logically:

1) Full throttle (or as full as the CC can apply).
2) No throttle.
3) Stuck to set speed.

#3 is really the least likely, since it would require a fully functioning CC, only you could not reset it of turn it off, but I suppose a plug could fall off, disconnecting the control switches.

#2 Is the fail safe mode. I would expect that CC systems would be built so most failure mechanisms forced it to fail in this mode.

#1 Will, of course, make the car speed up. I doubt if a CC can ever apply full throttle, but this mode might be a challenge to a panicking driver. A lot of drivers have only a very foggy idea of how their vehicle functions, so the actions that appear obvious to the technical minds may not even cross their minds. However, puncing down on the brakes should be obvious to anyone qualified to drive at all (but this may not include ALL drivers).

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

According to reports.

He called Ford and the Police. They advised him to turn off the ignition, and put the car into neutral. The software over rode his ability to do so. He could not put it into neutral, nor turn off the ignition. He was talking to them and doing what they said. I can't believe it was something to dodge a fine, he nearly lost his life.

Well, I don't know the model. However, even the most fancy systems have some kind of key that can be removed, with the express purpose of immobilizing the vehicle.

- And there's still the brakes.

I'm not saying he wanted to dodge a fine, but that panic kept him from doing the right thing. He called Ford? He had the number of the technical department of Ford? Or did he just call his ford dealer? And get a salesperson who doesn't always have much idea of what goes on under the hood?

Hans

 

[JWideman]

Plausible, but it requires a lot of things to fail at once, and they aren't all going to just correct themselves. Any mechanic with a diagnostic computer can say "there's a fault in this, this, and this".
A more likely scenario is operator error combined with design flaw. For example, my late mother-in-law had a habit of engaging the cruise control passing mode by accident simply by the way she placed her hands on the wheel. With this particular model, having the cruise control in passing mode would keep the brake from disengaging the cruise control. The end result was that she often accelerated while going through turns. Nobody else who drove the car experienced this, and I only figured it out by carefully watching her hands.

 

[Shrike]

Automotive engineer here (a real one, not a Longtabber PE one).
I think the guy just panicked.
An automatic can always be put in neutral or a lower gear. Failsafe for a CC is always to sitch off, not go to full throttle.
The system is real simple: inputs are the signals from the switch (on, set, resume, off), the desired speed, the real speed, the brake light signal, and the clutch signal (or N/R/p from the auto).
Output is a signal to the throttle valve.
Another problem can just be a stuck throttle valve (in WOT), but you can always override this as well.

I seem to recall something like this happening a year or two back, overseas. Some fella got his cruise control stuck to full throttle on the autobahn. TV footage of him going through a toll booth barrier at 100 MPH. The initial response of the car company was to deny that it could happen, but if I recall, they did eventually find a subtle fault in the software. That's not to say that a clever, non-panicked individual couldn't think of plenty of ways to stop a vehicle with a stuck throttle, but I do have some sympathy for those who aren't thinking clearly at that particular moment.

A

Can you find some more on that?

 

[Shrike]

Brakes would still work. Some Citroën cars might have a problem with hydraulics, but all other cars are either mechanics or, more commonly, servo-assisted mechanics (like power steering), which would make the breaks harder to operate, but functional. Furthermore, hand brake is called an auxiliary brake for a reason, and it too is mechanic in all cars that I know of.
In short, there is no reason to expect these systems wouldn't work.

McHrozni

The only difference with older model Citroëns is that they used they hydraulics of the suspension and the power steering. <nitpick>
You're right, the power assistance would fail if you cut the ignition. Still, it was a freeway, so you can coast to a stop without much steering required.
You can still brake and steer, it just requires more strength.

 

[screensnot]

I am not familiar with the mechanical details of this vehicle.

But, I am getting more concerned about all the electronics that are used in newer vehicles.

Recently, in the US, four people died when they couldn't stop their Lexus. The driver, Mark Saylor, was a California Highway Patrolman with 19 years on the force. His wife, teenage daughter, and wife's brother were in the car. The brother made a call to 911 while the car was out of control. The call lasted 50 seconds ending with the fatal crash, so I think it's safe to assume that they had over a minute to try to regain control of the car. The official report was that the accelerator pedal got stuck on the floor mat, holding it down. The car was on loan from the dealer. Saylor had dropped his own car off for repairs earlier that day.

Three days earlier, another person had been driving the same loaner car and had the pedal get stuck on the floor mat. He said that he had to put the car in neutral, pull over, then stop the engine. After he was stopped, he discovered the floor mat holding the pedal down, cleared it, then drove the vehicle with no more problems. He says he reported the incident to the receptionist or cashier when he took it back to pick up his own vehicle.

The Lexus loaner car has a push-button to start/stop the engine (no key needed). When the vehicle is moving, you need to press and hold the start/stop button for three seconds in order to kill the engine.

The Lexus uses a drive-by-wire throttle, and has no direct linkage between the pedal and engine.

I've been told that the shifter is all electronic, and has no linkage to the transmission, but I am not sure that's true. I have worked on many electronic transmissions, and they all had mechanical linkages, while the electronics only controlled shift points while in the forward gears.

My point to all this is, when electronics are controlling so much of the vehicle, there needs to be a way for a driver to immediately override them. Especially the start/stop button. Three seconds is a long time to have to hold that button down while your car is accelerating out of control.