Merged E-4B flying around pentagon / Norman Mineta timeline

[Cheap Shot]

tell me more about what you meant about this:
"On 9/11, because aircraft were disappearing from radars, some centres started to use the TSD to track flights, however obviously this is problematic when flights are changing course. It was also used by centres to monitor aircraft outside their airspace. A false second track was created for AA11, which was the cause of the phantom AA11 report."

Centers would never use a TSD to track a flight. THey did use them to monitor aircraft outside of our airspace. I don't know what you mean about aircraft disappearing from Radar, AAL77 disapeared from radar because the sector it was not set up for primary radar. AAL11 was tracked down to proabably 2,000 ft. UAL175 was tracked I believe down to about 7,000 ft, and that was probably due to a steep rate of descent. It takes 12 seconds for a Center Rdar sweep. UAL93 was tracked down to a fairly low altitude not sure but I beleive down to about 5,000 ft. As far as I knew there were not any radar issues at the FAA on 9/11.

 

[gumboot]

Thanks for the info Cheap Shot.

 

[gumboot]

and you know that how?

Because every other explanation has been eliminated. Based on the known facts, the only plausible explanation is that it was UA93's TSD track.

no, he is describing the DRA approach and the pentagon getting hit all in one.

No he isn't. Your clue here is the words "later on". First he talks about what, at the time, he thought was happening. Then he talks about what it turned out was actually happening, once they looked at the radar data. Of course he still got it wrong, because he had his times wrong.

read what he said again:

I don't need to. I understand what he said perfectly. Perhaps you should read it again?

 

[gumboot]

Centers would never use a TSD to track a flight. THey did use them to monitor aircraft outside of our airspace.

That's my fault for poor choice of words. I should have considered that "track" has a very specific meaning in ATC terms. "Monitor" is a better way of putting it.

What I meant was that there were clear instances on 9/11 of NORAD receiving info from the FAA that NORAD clearly assumed was radar data, but was actually derived from the TSD. The Phantom AA11 is a prime example.

 

[Senenmut]

Because every other explanation has been eliminated. Based on the known facts, the only plausible explanation is that it was UA93's TSD track.




No he isn't. Your clue here is the words "later on". First he talks about what, at the time, he thought was happening. Then he talks about what it turned out was actually happening, once they looked at the radar data. Of course he still got it wrong, because he had his times wrong.




I don't need to. I understand what he said perfectly. Perhaps you should read it again?

so a tsd track can do this:

MINETA: "Well, the question was where is it coming. And so as I was asking Monte, it was following pretty much the DRA, the down river approach, and it had not crossed over towards the White House or towards the Capitol. It was staying on its line towards what would normally be the traffic pattern into National Airport.
And in fact, later on, in looking at the radar track, the plane had actually over-passed the Pentagon, then turned around and then came back into it, and it never took a wide sweep to cross over to the east side of the White House."

so TSD tracks can turn around and "came back into it". the "it" he is referring to is the pentagon.


think logically. do you really think the peoc would be notified right when the pentagon got hit or 30 mins later? what time was the pentagon hit. what time did flight 93 crash. how far away from washington was flight 93 when it crashed. how long would that TSD take to get to washington. it just doesnt add up.

any comments about what mineta saw from his interview with msnbc interview cheapshot.

 

[Senenmut]

The TSD gets it info from one source flight plan data. If the radar is interogating the transponder correctlly, and the transponder shows the aircraft in certain parameters then the TSD will continue to update. The ARTCC HOST trackking system has to show the target in what is called a "FLAT TRACK", it is now updating. If it is not in a "FLAT TRACK" it can be in what is called a "FREE TRACK" which means the transponder is still being interogated, but the target has fallen outside of parameters. If it is in a "COAST TRACK" then there is no interogation of the transponder.

In the TSD if a aircraft goes into FREE TRACK or COAST TRACK the aircraft will continue on it's route of flight based on the last time it was under FLAT TRACK.

AAL11 continued on its flight path to LAX. AAL11A never had a route of flight assigned as far as I know, maybe DCA or somewehre else south, since it was never FLAT TRACKED it continued on what ever it's last heading was or it could have even floated, which does happen sometimes.

thanks for the info. if i remember right, that how you guys got delta 1989, from looking at the tsd's.

do you have any comments on dave canoles.

dave wrote about "rebirth of 11....dont remember...doubt about whether 11 hit tower..."

http://www.911myths.com/images/b/bf/DanaHyde_Box2_DaveCanoles_FAA-WOC.pdf

why would he think that?

 

[Myriad]

dave wrote about "rebirth of 11....dont remember...doubt about whether 11 hit tower..."

In that case he also wrote about "11... don't... doubt... 11 hit tower..."

So, I guess that settles it.

(Or not, which is why I prefer to see quotes that average a little more than 4 words per ellipsis.)

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Myriad]

The actual written passage (broken into lines as in the original):

JZ — re Rebirth of 11
don't remember doubt about whether
11 had hit tower

I think the most likely reason he wrote that is that he did not remember doubt about whether Flight 11 had hit a tower. But that's just me and my wild, imaginative interpretations.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Senenmut]

The actual written passage (broken into lines as in the original):

JZ — re Rebirth of 11
don't remember doubt about whether
11 had hit tower

I think the most likely reason he wrote that is that he did not remember doubt about whether Flight 11 had hit a tower. But that's just me and my wild, imaginative interpretations.

Respectfully,
Myriad

just to give ya an idea why i brought that up. scoggins mentioned dave canoles in this interview. so i looked at that pdf file i linked earlier and saw the "rebirth of flight 11." so dave canoles must of seen or heard something. it would be nice if 911myths intervied dave to find out the time frame here and what kind of path that plane was taking.

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Phantom_flight_11

911myths: Why did you believe that Flight 11 may still be in the air?

Colin Scoggins:..............
I think this ended up on the telcon as AAL 11 is still airborne. From my point of view the aircraft was heading south at low altitude and we had lost radar, my only guess was he was heading for Washington DC. I found out years later and I am 99% certain the person who made that call on the telcon was Dave Canoles, he has since retired. I took the information I received and called NEADS almost instantly, can't tell you who I told that to, I talked with so many people there the whole day.

911myths: Several 9/11 researchers authors have reported that the “phantom flight 11” was spotted on radar. Is that true?

Colin Scoggins: I have no idea where that came from. Once we lost the aircraft we never even had a hint of another target. I even called FACSFAC VACAPES which has radar up and down the coast, to look for targets, they didn't come up with any.

911myths: If it was never on radar, why say it was going to Washington?

Colin Scoggins: Again it was just my hunch, as where they were heading. The aircraft would have enough gas to get there even at low altitude, but if the aircraft was heading to Cuba, it would never make it at low altitude. Couldn't think of any other important targets on the east coast, so that was where my mind was. I also tried to guess where the aircraft would be at the speed it was traveling.

 

[gumboot]

so a tsd track can do this:

MINETA: "Well, the question was where is it coming. And so as I was asking Monte, it was following pretty much the DRA, the down river approach, and it had not crossed over towards the White House or towards the Capitol. It was staying on its line towards what would normally be the traffic pattern into National Airport.
And in fact, later on, in looking at the radar track, the plane had actually over-passed the Pentagon, then turned around and then came back into it, and it never took a wide sweep to cross over to the east side of the White House."

so TSD tracks can turn around and "came back into it". the "it" he is referring to is the pentagon.

No that wasn't the TSD, that was AA77's radar track, as I have already told you several times. Did you not read the bit where he said "looking at the radar track"?

Seriously, if you're not even going to bother reading what I am telling you, why should I bother responding to your questions? This is exactly why I stopped being involved in 9/11 topics. You don't deserve my time.

think logically. do you really think the peoc would be notified right when the pentagon got hit or 30 mins later?

Actually I think it's more like 40 minutes.

what time was the pentagon hit.

0937EDT.

what time did flight 93 crash.

1003EDT.

how far away from washington was flight 93 when it crashed.

About 150 miles.

how long would that TSD take to get to washington.

About 20 minutes.

it just doesnt add up.

It actually fits almost perfectly. I've been over the Mineta timeline extensively, and considered a variety of possibilities, and a UA93 TSD track is the only plausible one. I've previously explained many times why it's impossible for Mineta to have been hearing of the approach of AA77.

 

[Senenmut]

No that wasn't the TSD, that was AA77's radar track, as I have already told you several times. Did you not read the bit where he said "looking at the radar track"?

Seriously, if you're not even going to bother reading what I am telling you, why should I bother responding to your questions? This is exactly why I stopped being involved in 9/11 topics. You don't deserve my time.





Actually I think it's more like 40 minutes.




0937EDT.




1003EDT.




About 150 miles.




About 20 minutes.




It actually fits almost perfectly. I've been over the Mineta timeline extensively, and considered a variety of possibilities, and a UA93 TSD track is the only plausible one. I've previously explained many times why it's impossible for Mineta to have been hearing of the approach of AA77.

i knew all those answers already.....and i also read what you have said. did flgiht 77 have a DRA approach? did it over pass the pentagon? i was showing you how ridiculous the flight 93 tsd scenario sounds. so the peoc wouldnt be informed for 40 mins after the pentagon attack?? my my, that does sound like govt work!! haha.... or were they informed like mineta said:
mineta: "And then pretty soon he said, "Oh-oh, we just lost the target." And so a few moments later, someone came in and said, "Mr. Vice President, there's been an explosion at the Pentagon."

that makes a hell of alot more since than 40 mins after the pentagon got hit that the peoc was informed!!

and the track he mentions is the one monte was calling the DRA. whatever flight it was went down the river, past the pentagon, turned around then went towards the pentagon, then disappeared.

 

[Senenmut]

i doubt anyone can tell me this but since SWORD 31 was already in the air, would that also mean an AWAC or AWAC's would be in the air providing a birds eye view of the situation?

also, would the E-4B actually let the faa know that it was in the air. i would assume that only the military would know since we do have spies!!

are these planes painted with that special paint that makes it hard for radar to pick them up? i would assume that these planes would be somewhat stealth and that the coordinates when flying would be secret on a need to know basis only.

would they have a transponder on?

 

[Reheat]

i doubt anyone can tell me this but since SWORD 31 was already in the air, would that also mean an AWAC or AWAC's would be in the air providing a birds eye view of the situation?

Sure, there was an AWACs up navigating for Sword 31. You know, to keep him from getting lost on his way to Omaha.

also, would the E-4B actually let the faa know that it was in the air. i would assume that only the military would know since we do have spies!!

Of course they don't tell. Airline pilots know by intuition when another 747 type aircraft is airborne and just dodge them if they can (see further explanation below). It's usually works, but it's not % 100. National Security is quite important, you know.

are these planes painted with that special paint that makes it hard for radar to pick them up? i would assume that these planes would be somewhat stealth and that the coordinates when flying would be secret on a need to know basis only.

Well, it's not just paint, they also have a cloaking device that gives them the appearance of Superman. That's makes other pilots, particularly Airline Pilots less suspicious. Only folks with a GPS that has a kryptonite detector know the route of flight. Fortunately those are rare.

would they have a transponder on?

Of course not. How in the heck would Superman power a transponder? Can't you think, man. That would give away the cloaking device, you tool.

 

[funk de fino]

i knew all those answers already.....and i also read what you have said. did flgiht 77 have a DRA approach? did it over pass the pentagon? i was showing you how ridiculous the flight 93 tsd scenario sounds. so the peoc wouldnt be informed for 40 mins after the pentagon attack?? my my, that does sound like govt work!! haha.... or were they informed like mineta said:
mineta: "And then pretty soon he said, "Oh-oh, we just lost the target." And so a few moments later, someone came in and said, "Mr. Vice President, there's been an explosion at the Pentagon."

that makes a hell of alot more since than 40 mins after the pentagon got hit that the peoc was informed!!

and the track he mentions is the one monte was calling the DRA. whatever flight it was went down the river, past the pentagon, turned around then went towards the pentagon, then disappeared.

Mineta's timings are demonstrably incorrect. You are conflating statements by someone who has no clue about what times he thinks things happened. The first part of the statement is talking about what he heard at the time. the second part is about the radar track of 77 he saw later.

Flight 77 radar track is readily available. The coast track for 93 continued onwards towards Washington. Mineta heard the call outs about the coast track as 77 had already crashed into the Pentagon before he got to the PEOC. While he was in the PEOC they got confirmation there had been an explosion caused by something hitting the Pentagon.

 

[gumboot]

Sure, there was an AWACs up navigating for Sword 31. You know, to keep him from getting lost on his way to Omaha.



Of course they don't tell. Airline pilots know by intuition when another 747 type aircraft is airborne and just dodge them if they can (see further explanation below). It's usually works, but it's not % 100. National Security is quite important, you know.



Well, it's not just paint, they also have a cloaking device that gives them the appearance of Superman. That's makes other pilots, particularly Airline Pilots less suspicious. Only folks with a GPS that has a kryptonite detector know the route of flight. Fortunately those are rare.



Of course not. How in the heck would Superman power a transponder? Can't you think, man. That would give away the cloaking device, you tool.

I was going to answer seriously, but I much prefer your answers.

 

[Senenmut]

Mineta's timings are demonstrably incorrect. You are conflating statements by someone who has no clue about what times he thinks things happened. The first part of the statement is talking about what he heard at the time. the second part is about the radar track of 77 he saw later.

Flight 77 radar track is readily available. The coast track for 93 continued onwards towards Washington. Mineta heard the call outs about the coast track as 77 had already crashed into the Pentagon before he got to the PEOC. While he was in the PEOC they got confirmation there had been an explosion caused by something hitting the Pentagon.

coast track or TSD?

i would take norman mineta's testimony more serious than anything that cheney and his neocon cabal say!!

tell me your thoughts on the Office of Special Plans?

 

[funk de fino]

coast track or TSD?

Did you read Cheapshots posts? It tells you this.

i would take norman mineta's testimony more serious than anything that cheney and his neocon cabal say!!

It is not only Cheney who proves Mineta wrong but Minetas own statements. He says he arrives when everyone is running across the street because they have been evacuated. this happened afte the attack at the Pentagon. He says that when he arrived that Lynn Cheney was there with hubby Dick. She only arrived after the Pentagon attack. She was downtown and was whisked to the PEOC when the attack took place. If she was in the PEOC when Mineta arrived then it was after the Pentagon had been hit. He said they had a countdown to the aircraft approaching. This is impossible for flight 77 because they were only informed a few minutes before it hit that there was an aircraft approaching DC. The controllers had only just spotted it again. This is all shown in the controllers statements.

Thanks for proving this is political for you and not based on facts.

tell me your thoughts on the Office of Special Plans?

why?

 

[Senenmut]

Did you read Cheapshots posts? It tells you this.



It is not only Cheney who proves Mineta wrong but Minetas own statements. He says he arrives when everyone is running across the street because they have been evacuated. this happened afte the attack at the Pentagon. He says that when he arrived that Lynn Cheney was there with hubby Dick. She only arrived after the Pentagon attack. She was downtown and was whisked to the PEOC when the attack took place. If she was in the PEOC when Mineta arrived then it was after the Pentagon had been hit. He said they had a countdown to the aircraft approaching. This is impossible for flight 77 because they were only informed a few minutes before it hit that there was an aircraft approaching DC. The controllers had only just spotted it again. This is all shown in the controllers statements.

Thanks for proving this is political for you and not based on facts.



why?

cheapshot was talking about flight 11. one would think monte knew some basic signs if flight 93 went into coast track all the way there.

cheapshot stated at pft:

"It takes a couple of minutes for a track to switch to a coast track, it will free track for a little bit then switch to caost, very recognizable though when it does. Where the digitized target symbol is the coast track will show a # sign, when in free track a triangle will appear over the target symbol, free tracks occur when the aircraft is outside of its flightplan limitations. When it is flat tracked it will show a diamond shape over the target."

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=17089

as for why i would bring up the Office of Special Plans....maybe you need to do some research yourself concerning the neocons and the way the OSP conducted business.

 

[funk de fino]

cheapshot was talking about flight 11. one would think monte knew some basic signs if flight 93 went into coast track all the way there.

You have no idea who was watching the coast track do you? I suggest you read his interviews for the commission along with Mineta's. They had to assume the coast track was the real aircraft because they had lost the real aircraft. Stop being dense.

cheapshot stated at pft:

"It takes a couple of minutes for a track to switch to a coast track, it will free track for a little bit then switch to caost, very recognizable though when it does. Where the digitized target symbol is the coast track will show a # sign, when in free track a triangle will appear over the target symbol, free tracks occur when the aircraft is outside of its flightplan limitations. When it is flat tracked it will show a diamond shape over the target."

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=17089

So? Mineta is wrong and you are avoiding the subject now. Please try and prove Mineta times are correct given the information I have provided. The coast track was the track that was being relayed to the PEOC. They did not know that Flight 93 had already crashed. Flight 77 was only spotted again by the controllers very near Dulles going at a high rate of knots towards DC. This was not the 50-40-30-20 call out aircraft. This information regarding Flight 77, and when it was spotted again, is in the controllers interviews, I suggest you read them also.

as for why i would bring up the Office of Special Plans....maybe you need to do some research yourself concerning the neocons and the way the OSP conducted business.

Off topic, political claptrap and irrelevant. Stick to Mineta please.

 

[funk de fino]

Heres a link to Minetas testimony courtesy of 911myths. If you want to waste 45 mins of your life to see he is wrong about the times, then fill your boots.

http://911myths.com/index.php/Norman_Mineta_testifies