Merged E-4B flying around pentagon / Norman Mineta timeline

[Senenmut]

And even if there HAD been two E-4B that departed from Andrews, what would the significance be with regards to whether or not there was a government orchestrated conspiracy on 9/11?

wouldnt ya like to know what plane produced this track? or was it an "inject". i think gumboot was tried to pass it off as the TSD of flight 93. didnt make much since though.

MINETA: "Well, the question was where is it coming. And so as I was asking Monte, it was following pretty much the DRA, the down river approach, and it had not crossed over towards the White House or towards the Capitol. It was staying on its line towards what would normally be the traffic pattern into National Airport.
And in fact, later on, in looking at the radar track, the plane had actually over-passed the Pentagon, then turned around and then came back into it, and it never took a wide sweep to cross over to the east side of the White House."

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Norman_Mineta

 

[gumboot]

wouldnt ya like to know what plane produced this track? or was it an "inject". i think gumboot was tried to pass it off as the TSD of flight 93. didnt make much since though.

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[Senenmut]

What on earth are you talking about?

well you and boone870.
gumboot said-

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130731&highlight=Mineta+thread

"It's probably worth explaining to people what you mean by "course update".

The FAA has a system called the Traffic Situational Display (TSD) which is a map of all logged flight paths. The various centres can update this display when they change an aircraft's flight path for whatever reason.

The TSD is an independent system which is not updated by radar data, nor is it based on radar data.

The data from the TSD is used in the central operations centre and also by the USSS, who do not have direct access to radars.

On 9/11, because aircraft were disappearing from radars, some centres started to use the TSD to track flights, however obviously this is problematic when flights are changing course. It was also used by centres to monitor aircraft outside their airspace. A false second track was created for AA11, which was the cause of the phantom AA11 report.

Meanwhile, UA93 was not cleared from the TSD after it crashed, so the USSS continued to track its progress towards DC.

What Boone 870 is presenting above is the TSD track for UA93 which remained in the system well after the aircraft crashed."

 

[gumboot]

well you and boone870.
gumboot said-

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130731&highlight=Mineta+thread

"It's probably worth explaining to people what you mean by "course update".

The FAA has a system called the Traffic Situational Display (TSD) which is a map of all logged flight paths. The various centres can update this display when they change an aircraft's flight path for whatever reason.

The TSD is an independent system which is not updated by radar data, nor is it based on radar data.

The data from the TSD is used in the central operations centre and also by the USSS, who do not have direct access to radars.

On 9/11, because aircraft were disappearing from radars, some centres started to use the TSD to track flights, however obviously this is problematic when flights are changing course. It was also used by centres to monitor aircraft outside their airspace. A false second track was created for AA11, which was the cause of the phantom AA11 report.

Meanwhile, UA93 was not cleared from the TSD after it crashed, so the USSS continued to track its progress towards DC.

What Boone 870 is presenting above is the TSD track for UA93 which remained in the system well after the aircraft crashed."

What has any of that got to do with the E-4Bs flying over Washington DC?

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Even if this was relevant, where does TSD pull its geolocation data from? What's its expected Area of Uncertainty/Bearing Error/Latency/Refresh and such?

 

[gumboot]

Even if this was relevant, where does TSD pull its geolocation data from? What's its expected Area of Uncertainty/Bearing Error/Latency/Refresh and such?

Given that the TSD is nothing more than a pre-plotted flight path, and has no bearing on, nor connection with real time events at all, its expected uncertainty is probably rather high when things stop going according to plan.

 

[Senenmut]

What has any of that got to do with the E-4Bs flying over Washington DC?

tell me more about what you meant about this:
"On 9/11, because aircraft were disappearing from radars, some centres started to use the TSD to track flights, however obviously this is problematic when flights are changing course. It was also used by centres to monitor aircraft outside their airspace. A false second track was created for AA11, which was the cause of the phantom AA11 report."

 

[gumboot]

tell me more about what you meant about this:
"On 9/11, because aircraft were disappearing from radars, some centres started to use the TSD to track flights, however obviously this is problematic when flights are changing course. It was also used by centres to monitor aircraft outside their airspace. A false second track was created for AA11, which was the cause of the phantom AA11 report."

It seems pretty straight forward to me. What exactly about it doesn't make sense to you?

The TSD is the "Traffic Situational Display" which is a computer program that displays the logged flight path of all aircraft in controlled airspace. The display is manually updated by ARTCCs so that it accurately reflects the real world. As such, individual ARTCCs can edit the display quite extensively, including creating new flight paths.

Because only the ATC centres have direct access to radar, the display is vital for operation of other facilities that monitor the National Airway System, such as the national ATC command centre and FAA HQ. In addition, the display is accessible to some non-FAA organisations that have an interest in air traffic such as the Secret Service and presumably airports and so on.

Obviously, because the TSD is a manually logged display, it will only ever be as accurate as the data being fed into it. On 9/11 some erroneous data was fed into it by ARTCCs in an effort to track the hijacked flights, and this created issues. These issues were compounded by ATC relying heavily on the TSD due to loss of radar contact with some flights.

 

[Senenmut]

Even if this was relevant, where does TSD pull its geolocation data from? What's its expected Area of Uncertainty/Bearing Error/Latency/Refresh and such?

gumboot made the TSD remarkes regards to the mineta statments and flight 93. ask him. im wondering what plane or if an "inject" made this track that mineta looked at after the fact.

 

[gumboot]

gumboot made the TSD remarkes regards to the mineta statments and flight 93. ask him. im wondering what plane or if an "inject" made this track that mineta looked at after the fact.

AA77 did, obviously.

 

[Senenmut]

It seems pretty straight forward to me. What exactly about it doesn't make sense to you?

The TSD is the "Traffic Situational Display" which is a computer program that displays the logged flight path of all aircraft in controlled airspace. The display is manually updated by ARTCCs so that it accurately reflects the real world. As such, individual ARTCCs can edit the display quite extensively, including creating new flight paths.

Because only the ATC centres have direct access to radar, the display is vital for operation of other facilities that monitor the National Airway System, such as the national ATC command centre and FAA HQ. In addition, the display is accessible to some non-FAA organisations that have an interest in air traffic such as the Secret Service and presumably airports and so on.

Obviously, because the TSD is a manually logged display, it will only ever be as accurate as the data being fed into it. On 9/11 some erroneous data was fed into it by ARTCCs in an effort to track the hijacked flights, and this created issues. These issues were compounded by ATC relying heavily on the TSD due to loss of radar contact with some flights.

would you like to elaborate on "why" and "who" feed the erroneous data into the artccs? also, what path would the "phantom 11" take after it had already hit the tower?

i understand that the TSD is a few mins behind the radar from what ive read.

 

[Senenmut]

AA77 did, obviously.

am i missing something. AA77 did NOT head into washington with a DRA ( down the river approach)??????

 

[gumboot]

would you like to elaborate on "why" and "who" feed the erroneous data into the artccs? also, what path would the "phantom 11" take after it had already hit the tower?

The erroneous data was plotted in because AA11 had totally vanished from radar, and the FAA needed to be able to plot the general area it would be in at its last known heading and speed, so that they knew where the fighters should be looking, where ATC should be looking for unknown aircraft, etc.

i understand that the TSD is a few mins behind the radar from what ive read.

The TSD and radar are totally unrelated. The TSD can be perfectly aligned with the radar if controllers update it accurately, or it can be hours and hours out of date with radar if they do not.

 

[Senenmut]

read what mineta said again. and he states that looking at the flight path again (later on) that the plane passed over passed the pentagon, turned around, and came back into it. is this the TSD of flight 93 like you stated in the other thread? or something else entirely....

MINETA: "Well, the question was where is it coming. And so as I was asking Monte, it was following pretty much the DRA, the down river approach, and it had not crossed over towards the White House or towards the Capitol. It was staying on its line towards what would normally be the traffic pattern into National Airport.
And in fact, later on, in looking at the radar track, the plane had actually over-passed the Pentagon, then turned around and then came back into it, and it never took a wide sweep to cross over to the east side of the White House."

 

[gumboot]

am i missing something. AA77 did NOT head into washington with a DRA ( down the river approach)??????

I know. And?

 

[gumboot]

read what mineta said again. and he states that looking at the flight path again (later on) that the plane passed over passed the pentagon, turned around, and came back into it. is this the TSD of flight 93 like you stated in the other thread? or something else entirely....

In your quote, the first bit, talking about the DRA, as described by FAA HQ to Mineta on the day of 9/11, is the TSD for UA93.

The second bit, where he describes looking at a radar track, he is talking about the radar track for AA77.

Mineta thinks they're one and the same, because Mineta got his times wrong. I hope that clears things up.

 

[Senenmut]

The erroneous data was plotted in because AA11 had totally vanished from radar, and the FAA needed to be able to plot the general area it would be in at its last known heading and speed, so that they knew where the fighters should be looking, where ATC should be looking for unknown aircraft, etc.

The TSD and radar are totally unrelated. The TSD can be perfectly aligned with the radar if controllers update it accurately, or it can be hours and hours out of date with radar if they do not.

so give me a flight path of that data!!! and who plotted that dataafter it supposedly crashed!! are you saying that it would be heading towards washington from its last know heading and speed.

from what ive read, the tsd is up to date if the transponder is woking.

 

[Senenmut]

In your quote, the first bit, talking about the DRA, as described by FAA HQ to Mineta on the day of 9/11, is the TSD for UA93.

and you know that how?

The second bit, where he describes looking at a radar track, he is talking about the radar track for AA77.

no, he is describing the DRA approach and the pentagon getting hit all in one.

Mineta thinks they're one and the same, because Mineta got his times wrong. I hope that clears things up.

read what he said again:
MINETA: "Well, the question was where is it coming. And so as I was asking Monte, it was following pretty much the DRA, the down river approach, and it had not crossed over towards the White House or towards the Capitol. It was staying on its line towards what would normally be the traffic pattern into National Airport.
And in fact, later on, in looking at the radar track, the plane had actually over-passed the Pentagon, then turned around and then came back into it, and it never took a wide sweep to cross over to the east side of the White House."

 

[gumboot]

so give me a flight path of that data!!!

Ask the FAA.

and who plotted that dataafter it supposedly crashed!!

The second flight path (AA11A) was created before AA11 crashed. It was created when AA11 turned its transponder off, I believe.

are you saying that it would be heading towards washington from its last know heading and speed.

They decided it was probably heading south towards larger airports.

from what ive read, the tsd is up to date if the transponder is woking.

Hrm, this might be true, if there is a matching transponder and flight path. However transponder alone wouldn't be enough as when UA175 changed its transponder code the TSD got out of wack with the real flight.

For what it's worth the AA11 track on the TSD continued on its intended flight path and eventually landed at its destination (LAX, I think). I'm not sure what ended up happening with the AA11A track.

 

[Cheap Shot]

from what ive read, the tsd is up to date if the transponder is woking.

The TSD gets it info from one source flight plan data. If the radar is interogating the transponder correctlly, and the transponder shows the aircraft in certain parameters then the TSD will continue to update. The ARTCC HOST trackking system has to show the target in what is called a "FLAT TRACK", it is now updating. If it is not in a "FLAT TRACK" it can be in what is called a "FREE TRACK" which means the transponder is still being interogated, but the target has fallen outside of parameters. If it is in a "COAST TRACK" then there is no interogation of the transponder.

In the TSD if a aircraft goes into FREE TRACK or COAST TRACK the aircraft will continue on it's route of flight based on the last time it was under FLAT TRACK.

AAL11 continued on its flight path to LAX. AAL11A never had a route of flight assigned as far as I know, maybe DCA or somewehre else south, since it was never FLAT TRACKED it continued on what ever it's last heading was or it could have even floated, which does happen sometimes.