Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Fiona]

So I've been thinking about this and I'm not sure I can be objective in this case. I don't feel biased but when I look at the evidence even though my logical side thinks there are too many coincidences for some reason my brain always comes back innocent. Call it a gut feeling that I can't shake. For those reasons I'm just going to go back to plain undecided and watch how the rest of this thread and the appeal play out. I may still ask some questions and give some comments.

I think that is a very honest and straightforward statement of position NT and I applaud you for it.

The part that I have bolded is the crux of my concern about the impact of the media and the dangers of it. I suspect that no-one "feels" biased. Someone once said of intelligence that it was obvious that it was equally distributed because everyone was satisfied with their own share of it (not a direct quote but you get the idea); and so it is with objectivity. We can recognise when we are not rational but it is not an easy thing to do. I imagine the most rabid racist or sexist or "-ist" of any sort does not feel biased either: they will point to what they see as facts in support of their conclusions (you can see an example in the recent "multiculturalism" thread, I think.

When you don't share the prejudice it is hard to believe the other person can't see it: when you do you are swimming in the same water and the prejudice is invisible. More so with single issues of this sort, I think, because the counters are not so pervasive, and the connections are not so obvious

I have spoken before about "core concepts" and the fact that when those are tapped we are no longer fully rational: it is true of all of us I think. The best we can do is what you have just done: face it and acknowledge it. It is not at all easy to analyse it and harder still to change it.

The media know a lot about the core values and perceptions of the target audience: they play on them because it sells; because it serves their interests and those of their advertisers and other sources of revenue; for many reasons. And it is so difficult to avoid. They set the "water cooler" agenda to a large extent: if you never saw a tv programme or a newspaper you would still be aware of the issues of the day and the range of opinions which are allowable.

Where we are very lucky indeed is that, so far, the reach is not international: at least it is not on some things. We have an international board and the perspectives of others can be quite startling. It is hard to understand often, but at least we can try to explore other customs and other assumptions. This thread has done some of that and I think I have benefited from thinking about how our legal system works, for example.

We still have an enemy of critical thinking within, however. And I think we are apt to try to make only two sides of every issue when the fact is there are many. What I would like to see more often than I do is cooperative fact gathering first: conclusions later. I don't seem to see all that much of that here

 

[Fiona]

I'm starting to be convinced, though, that adversarial legal systems (and their blog imitations) distort perceptions and thought processes.

I am not sure what you mean. Italy does not have an adversarial legal system, and that is the only legal system under discussion in this thread. Or are you comparing it favourably to the systems in the UK and USA?

 

[Fulcanelli]

We still have an enemy of critical thinking within, however. And I think we are apt to try to make only two sides of every issue when the fact is there are many. What I would like to see more often than I do is cooperative fact gathering first: conclusions later. I don't seem to see all that much of that here

Certainly so in a case such as this.

If you judge, investigate.
-Seneca

 

[Fulcanelli]

I am not sure what you mean. Italy does not have an adversarial legal system, and that is the only legal system under discussion in this thread. Or are you comparing it favourably to the systems in the UK and USA?

UK/US - Adversarial system (common law - case law)

Italy - Inquisitorial system (civil law)

 

[Chris_Halkides]

physical contact?

To All,

Brainster was correct, and I am pretty new to this case, and i do not recall having seen this discussed in detail here. Can someone point me to a discussion covering exactly what the prosecution alleges about physical or sexual contact between the victim and RS or AK? I beg pardon for being direct, but by sexual contact I include intimate conduct that does not necessarily lead to ejaculation. My impression is that no sexual contact is alleged but I would like to be sure. Also, do they say whether RS or AK held the victim down? I would not ask except that such information would help us better to evaluate the DNA evidence.

Chris

 

[Fulcanelli]

To All,

Brainster was correct, and I am pretty new to this case, and i do not recall having seen this discussed in detail here. Can someone point me to a discussion covering exactly what the prosecution alleges about physical or sexual contact between the victim and RS or AK? I beg pardon for being direct, but by sexual contact I include intimate conduct that does not necessarily lead to ejaculation. My impression is that no sexual contact is alleged but I would like to be sure. Also, do they say whether RS or AK held the victim down? I would not ask except that such information would help us better to evaluate the DNA evidence.

Chris

Certainly. Prosecution Timeline:


November 21, 2009 PERUGIA: Public Prosecutor Manuela Commodi outlined today for the court a hypothetical timeline of events for the night Meredith Kercher was murdered:

15:48 (November 1, 2007): Meredith texts her English friends that she will be delayed in meeting with them.

16:00 - Meredith leaves the cottage on Via della Pergola to go to the home of her friends. Minutes later Raffaele and Amanda leave the same cottage on Via della Pergola to go Sollecito’s apartment.

18:00 - Amanda Knox leaves Raffaele Sollecito’s apartment, as demonstrated by cell phone records.

18:27 - Raffaele Sollecito interaction recorded on his laptop to watch the film “The Magical World of Amelie.

20:18 - Amanda Knox, located on Via Ulisse Rocchi, receives a text message from Patrick Lumumba advising her not to report to work that night.

20.30 - Amanda Knox now located on Via Garibaldi, back in the home of Raffaele Sollecito.

20:38 - Amanda sends a text message response to Patrick Lumumba.

20:46 - Sollecito turns off his cell phone, still at home on Via Garibaldi.

20:45 – Meredith’s simple meal with English friends concludes and she heads home in the direction of Via della Pergola with a girlfriend that only walks halfway home with her.

21:00 - Meredith is at home and snacks on a mushroom; lies down on the bed reads some university lecture notes.

21:10 – Last record of human interaction on Raffaele Sollecito’s computer.

21:45 - Amanda and Raffaele leave his apartment and head to Piazza Grimana, just a few dozen meters from Via della Pergola, where the two are witnessed by Curatolo discussing something while observing the cottage of Amanda and Meredith at a distance from the fence, apparently trying to decide what to do.

23:20 - Amanda unlocks the door of her cottage at Via della Pergola.

23.20 - Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy enter the cottage on Via della Pergola, where Meredith was already located. [In the overall reconstruction, as explained by Commodi, there is no description an earlier encounter between Amanda and Rudy but that is not included here because the timeline is based solely on testimony, actual evidence, and the autopsy findings]

23:21 - Amanda and Raffaele go to Amanda’s room while Rudy goes to the bathroom.

23:25 – A scuffle ensues between Amanda and Meredith; Sollecito assists Amanda. Meredith is taken by the neck and slammed against the wall, as demonstrated by head wounds. As this occurs, Rudy returns from the bathroom and joins in.

23:30 - Meredith falls to the ground. In attempts to subjugate and violate Merdith, the three only manage to remove Meredith’s pants. Meredith manages to get up and staggers back. At this point, Amanda and Raffaele produce two knives: one with a blade of four to five centimeters, the other being a larger kitchen knife. Meredith, using her right hand, tries to fend off the blades and is wounded.

23:35 – The aggression continues as Sollecito tries to rip Meredith’s bra off.

23:40 - Meredith is now on her knees being threatened by Amanda with the kitchen knife while Rudy restrains her with one hand and sexually violates her with the other. Then comes the first knife strike at Merediths face, followed immediately by another but both are ineffective in subduing Meredith and the level of violence by the three attackers escalates. Using the smaller knife, Sollecito attacks leaving a four centimeter cut in Meredith’s neck. Meredith releases an agonizing cry, which was heard by witnesses. Amanda then moves to silence her and, according to the prosecutors reconstruction, delivers a final blow to Meredith’s throat with the kitchen knife: the wound is mortal and Meredith falls to the ground.

23:45 – Meredith is helped to her feet by Rudy and is coughing up blood. The English girl, now dying, is then dragged to the side and the undressing continues.

23:50 - Amanda and Raffaele take Meredith’s cell phones and leave the apartment. Rudy remains at the cottage briefly as Meredith dies.

 

[Fiona]

Thank you Fulcanelli.

There are some discrepancies between that and the sequence of events I had in my mind, especially as to some of the times.

It is interesting to see the best fit the prosecution can make on the basis of more facts than I had

 

[Fulcanelli]

Thank you Fulcanelli.

There are some discrepancies between that and the sequence of events I had in my mind, especially as to some of the times.

It is interesting to see the best fit the prosecution can make on the basis of more facts than I had

Hi Fiona. The sequence of events may still change. It must be remembered that the prosecution only offer their 'idea' of the events and their sequence and that it's actually the judges who decide what it actually was and that may be partially or even wholly different to that offered by the prosecution. The judges' version of events/sequence will be the definitive version and we will get to see what that is sometime over the next 90 days from the verdict (but unlikely to be later then March 5th).

 

[Fiona]

Sure. I had read that they had moved the time of death back, but stupidly thought that meant in the other direction. I am a little puzzled about the time Guerde left on this timeline: but as ever, I do not have all the facts.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Sure. I had read that they had moved the time of death back, but stupidly thought that meant in the other direction. I am a little puzzled about the time Guerde left on this timeline: but as ever, I do not have all the facts.

Yes, this Timeline provides some surprises. For example, while it hasn't been included in this Timeline, the encounter with Kokomani now occurs before the murder rather then after, which raises all sorts of interesting questions of its own. As for the change in time for Rudy's leaving the cottage, that can only be possible if the prosecution have concluded that the individual Alessandra Formica witnessed rushing by her was in fact not Rudy Guede but somebody else.

 

[piktor]

Hello, this is my first comment here at Randi's.

The first thing to acknowledge from the start is the three accused are not believable. Judge Paolo Micheli in his 28/10/2008 Sentenzia says so of Guede.

 

[NewtonTrino]

23:21 - Amanda and Raffaele go to Amanda’s room while Rudy goes to the bathroom.

23:25 – A scuffle ensues between Amanda and Meredith; Sollecito assists Amanda. Meredith is taken by the neck and slammed against the wall, as demonstrated by head wounds. As this occurs, Rudy returns from the bathroom and joins in.

23:30 - Meredith falls to the ground. In attempts to subjugate and violate Merdith, the three only manage to remove Meredith’s pants. Meredith manages to get up and staggers back. At this point, Amanda and Raffaele produce two knives: one with a blade of four to five centimeters, the other being a larger kitchen knife. Meredith, using her right hand, tries to fend off the blades and is wounded.

23:35 – The aggression continues as Sollecito tries to rip Meredith’s bra off.

23:40 - Meredith is now on her knees being threatened by Amanda with the kitchen knife while Rudy restrains her with one hand and sexually violates her with the other. Then comes the first knife strike at Merediths face, followed immediately by another but both are ineffective in subduing Meredith and the level of violence by the three attackers escalates. Using the smaller knife, Sollecito attacks leaving a four centimeter cut in Meredith’s neck. Meredith releases an agonizing cry, which was heard by witnesses. Amanda then moves to silence her and, according to the prosecutors reconstruction, delivers a final blow to Meredith’s throat with the kitchen knife: the wound is mortal and Meredith falls to the ground.

This part of the timeline seems really important. It might be interesting to delve into the specific evidence used to come up with this. For example 23:35 is based on the DNA on the bra strap? Or something else?

I still think the idea of them raping her together seems odd. Did Amanda or Sollecito have anything in their past that would lead up to this kind of thing?

 

[Cicero]

This part of the timeline seems really important. It might be interesting to delve into the specific evidence used to come up with this. For example 23:35 is based on the DNA on the bra strap? Or something else?

I still think the idea of them raping her together seems odd. Did Amanda or Sollecito have anything in their past that would lead up to this kind of thing?

Amazing what happens when sheltered little darlings leave the orbit of their parents. Did Natalee Holloway binge drink before she left Alabama for Aruba?

 

[piktor]

The timeline and time of death is based on two ''ear witnesses'' that heard the scream, the time the victim ate pizza with friends, and the amount of food still in the victim's stomach, body temperature, etc.

All this is a police ''theory'' of the crime, based on evidence and information gathered.

The police have investigated circumstantial crimes thousands of times. They do not reconstruct a crime as we do, as if for the first time. The police was there at the crime scene, the police was there at the police station when the suspects were interrogated, they saw the accused acting differently from the roomates and friends of the victim. The police became suspicious very quickly.

In the end, the jury plus ten judges before, have heard the prosecution theory of the crime, they heard the defense rebuttal and favored the prosecution every time.

You have to wonder how a weak circumstantial case was not easily won by the defense.

 

[Fulcanelli]

This part of the timeline seems really important. It might be interesting to delve into the specific evidence used to come up with this. For example 23:35 is based on the DNA on the bra strap? Or something else?

Yes and no, it's argued the DNA on the clasp was laid down at a later point, hours after the murder when the bra was cut from the victim's body with a knife (it was only partially removed during the attack, as in rucked up)...although attempts to remove it during the attack certainly could have left some or all of the DNA.

I still think the idea of them raping her together seems odd. Did Amanda or Sollecito have anything in their past that would lead up to this kind of thing?

Well, Meredith wasn't raped, it was sexual assault. The reason why there's confusion over that is because Italian language doesn't differentiate between rape and sexual assault as the English language does. It must be understood though, the sexual assault was not about sex or 'free love', rather it was done to assault, degrade, humiliate and dominate the victim.

As for their past? Nothing overly apparent, no. Amanda was very sexually liberated and didn't need to know a man too well to get into a bed with him (as are many women who of course don't go on to commit sexually aggravated murder). Raffaele, well like most guys his age he had a porn collection (including beastiality stuff, not quite so normal), collected adult Manga comics which often contained very violent and erotic scenes, idolised a particular Italian serial killer who went to the same school as him, but aside from that, nothing really. There are no clear red flags in their past. However, that isn't to say some may not come to light at a later time. Often, we hear more about the past of murderers after they've been convicted.

 

[Fulcanelli]

The timeline and time of death is based on two ''ear witnesses'' that heard the scream, the time the victim ate pizza with friends, and the amount of food still in the victim's stomach, body temperature, etc.

All this is a police ''theory'' of the crime, based on evidence and information gathered.

Hi Piktor. There's even more witnesses then that. I think the crucial one (other then those you've mentioned), in terms of the time adjustment, is Kokomani. They had to decide whether his encounter with the trio occurred before or after the murder. Their conclusion would ultimately effect the TOD. They concluded it was before the attack Which therefore would have pushed the attack post 10:30 pm. The attack was estimated to have lasted about 25 minutes, which brings us to a TOD around the mid point somewhere between 11 - Midnight. This also brings into alignment the testimony of the other key witness (Antonio Curatolo a.k.a 'Toto') who saw Knox and Sollecito for a second time that night, watching the cottage from the railings of the basketball court at 11:30 pm.

 

[stilicho]

Wow. That's an interesting position you've assigned to me - where did you get it from?

You remain reluctant to list the pieces of evidence, statements or testimony that you would consider valid.

By the way, are we in agreement that the YouTube and the Sun photo do not show the same scene?

 

[piktor]

Hi Fulcanelli. I just read this "speculative narrative'' by a Seattle journalist, published today. It is based on the prosecution timeline. (Can't post link yet). It is at ''thestrangerdotcom'' blog by Charles Mudede.

The body was rearranged, along with evidence found in her room after the cleanup. This is part of the ''theory'' but the prosecution has convincing arguments, backed by evidence.

 

[stilicho]

I'm not convinced she's innocent. I'm not convinced by the statements of Amanda Knox's "parents and their PR army" and I'm not convinced by the statements of the police.

What about AK's own statements? The voluntary written statement on NOV 06 (the one ruled admissible) places her at the scene of the crime at the time it was being committed. Are you convinced by that?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Yes and no, it's argued the DNA on the clasp was laid down at a later point, hours after the murder when the bra was cut from the victim's body with a knife (it was only partially removed during the attack, as in rucked up)...although attempts to remove it during the attack certainly could have left some or all of the DNA.



Well, Meredith wasn't raped, it was sexual assault. The reason why there's confusion over that is because Italian language doesn't differentiate between rape and sexual assault as the English language does. It must be understood though, the sexual assault was not about sex or 'free love', rather it was done to assault, degrade, humiliate and dominate the victim.

As for their past? Nothing overly apparent, no. Amanda was very sexually liberated and didn't need to know a man too well to get into a bed with him (as are many women who of course don't go on to commit sexually aggravated murder). Raffaele, well like most guys his age he had a porn collection (including beastiality stuff, not quite so normal), collected adult Manga comics which often contained very violent and erotic scenes, idolised a particular Italian serial killer who went to the same school as him, but aside from that, nothing really. There are no clear red flags in their past. However, that isn't to say some may not come to light at a later time. Often, we hear more about the past of murderers after they've been convicted.

Don't forget that Knox has pulled a "rape" prank on a friend/roommate from college before, so the Prosecution timeline really wasn't that far out of character. It's been posted here before, I can see if I can find the reference if anyone wants it...

My personal bias is a lean towards this being a prank/sexual assault gone massively wrong. As it goes, I think I just don't want to admit to myself that people are really that twisted.

Was the autopsy able to give a relative time from death to when the body was moved? If so, was that incorporated into the Prosecution timeline?