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Hardfire: Szamboti / Chandler / Mackey

You really should try absorbing the reports, not just the FAQ. That's what got Griffin and Hoffman into such laughable mistakes.

Try here. We already had this discussion. It was only a couple of months ago, and you participated in that thread. Unless you're trying to convince me you have a memory problem, you have no excuse. You're throwing around bad figures to back up your stupid ideas. It won't work.


ETA: I see Tony is editing his posts again. Guess I'll have to start quoting in full...
 
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NIST is very vague on this, saying only that fires started shortly after the collapse of the N. Tower on multiple floors.

Now, if you check that against the photographic record, the fires are first recorded at 12:10PM in two windows in the SW corner of Floor 22.

Witness evidence says otherwise.
 
As you all know, I have this particular joker on Ignore, as he believes all kinds of fantastic things -- no planes hit the World Trade Center, the FDNY is part of the Vast Conspiracy, and that the Moon Landings were faked, at minimum -- making any rational discussion with him unlikely, to put it mildly. However, I was alerted by another reader to this particular post as a singular example of Truther dishonesty.

The most correct answer that can be provided is, of course, the Planet Earth. Which leaves one to wonder upon which celestial body this question was penned.

The question is, however, a classic example of the Fallacy of Many Questions. It is loaded from the outset, as follows:

  • Whether or not I am a rocket scientist has little to do with the answer, so why was it included in the question? There are plenty of other aerospace engineers and space scientists here at the JREF, and indeed one (apparently only one) former NASA employee on the side of the Truthers, as well.
  • Who said the only debate I take part in is the show Hardfire? Science doesn't typically work that way, and neither do I. There is no requirement for a face-to-face discussion, which is a good thing, otherwise Einstein would never have been able to improve upon Newton, as Newton had been dead for a considerable length of time and would have proved indefatiguable in debate. Instead, I've written a great deal, notably my 300-page summary paper analyzing Dr. Griffin and popular mystifications of the NIST report, and Truthers are encouraged to respond to it intelligently. Years roll on, and they still haven't.
  • The host of Hardfire was not, as the question presupposes, forced to explain his bias because of its severity. Rather, he explained his bias because he is honest. Try getting that on a Truther radio show. Everyone has a bias, and he declared his at the outset without prompting, yet he is criticized for this. The Truthers have it backwards, as always.
  • The question also implies that the show Hardfire, thanks to this bias, is an unsuitable ground for discussion. However, this flies in the face of the established fact that Ace Baker, bardamu's own idol (or perhaps even more than that), once appeared on the show -- a fact of which he is already aware. This is application of a double standard at best.
  • Furthermore, I haven't heard Tony complaining about the bias affecting his presentation. I think his ideas are totally nuts, but I give him credit for trying to keep the discussion fair, and for not whining about bias afterward.

So much nonsense packed in one little sentence. You almost have to admire it. This is not an accident.

This is what separates bardamu and other clever but delusional Truthers from the mere juveniles, such as Algebra34 or whatever he calls himself these days. While the latter provides no evidence of reasoning facility at all, the former reasons deeply, intricately, and in a manner totally disconnected from reality. Hence the irreversible spiral into no-planer and Apollo-denier territory -- both undeniable and stark delusions for which direct physical counterevidence exists and is easily accessible. This behavior is also consistent with my whitepaper on Irreducible Delusion.

To phrase the question in a more straightforward, honest manner: Why did I appear on Hardfire, and only there? Because they're the only show that asked. Simple.

If I was really in the New World Order, I wouldn't even do that much. I'd just beam the show directly into your brain. Sweet dreams. :tinfoil

It's not the show itself that's at fault - it's that poor excuse for a human being that hosts it. John Clifton was a fair and balanced host during the debate between the professional architect and the tour guide. He didn't kick off the show accusing the truth movement of peddling dishonesty and he didn't call anybody insane. I feel sure that John Clifton would have pointed out that the Irreducible Delusion is more applicable to the debunkers than to the truthers, since the vast majority of the latter have actually changed their position since 9/11 on the strength of the evidence.
 
It's not the show itself that's at fault - it's that poor excuse for a human being that hosts it. John Clifton was a fair and balanced host during the debate between the professional architect and the tour guide. He didn't kick off the show accusing the truth movement of peddling dishonesty and he didn't call anybody insane. I feel sure that John Clifton would have pointed out that the Irreducible Delusion is more applicable to the debunkers than to the truthers, since the vast majority of the latter have actually changed their position since 9/11 on the strength of the evidence.

blah blah blah...
have you figured out momentum yet?
Have you bothered to look up and find out what a buildings footprint is?

Edited by Locknar: 
Breach of Rule 12 concent removed.
 
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You really should try absorbing the reports, not just the FAQ. That's what got Griffin and Hoffman into such laughable mistakes.

Try here. We already had this discussion. It was only a couple of months ago, and you participated in that thread. Unless you're trying to convince me you have a memory problem, you have no excuse. You're throwing around bad figures to back up your stupid ideas. It won't work.


ETA: I see Tony is editing his posts again. Guess I'll have to start quoting in full...

Not only is he having "memory problems", but he's trying to spin this little tangent into a win for him over at Gregory's forum.

Tony Szamboti@The911Forum
Actually the floors outside of the core could withstand the weight of twelve additional floors on them. They weren't insignificant and it would not be easy to naturally get a runaway collapse of these floors going.

Having said that I agree that the central core is the bigger mystery as to how it could have collapsed without being tampered with. In fact, it is the reason I believe the buildings were demolished intentionally. Debunkers like Ryan Mackey are trying to say the entire upper block landed on the floors to attempt to explain the low resistance and lack of any deceleration, but he wouldn't answer me and changed the subject when I asked how he explains the central core collapse during the first several stories of the collapse.

So he's turned his inability to properly phrase a question into you avoiding answering. What did someone just say about baffling with B.S.?
 
Not surprising... he's incredibly stubborn when it comes to his baseline assumptions and he's going to stick with them no matter how many times he gets reminded that those assumptions fail on arrival. He denies the fires were hot enough to weaken the structure, he takes Bazant's limiting case literally, he treats everything as if the strutural integrity is the same post-impact as it was as-built, he bizarrely denies the dynamic loading. Don't get me wrong the guy might be easy enough to talk with over a cup of coffee, but holy crap... discussing this stuff rationally with him is damn near impossible because of where his base line claims fall. :\
 
And what physical evidence is there for them to change to the latter?

8 yrs of nothing from Truthers you mean??

You're missing the point. The Irreducible Delusion does not lead to a complete shift in position. It's an explanation why some people refuse to abandon their original theory.

Now it just so happens that the debunkers have held on to their original theory of 9/11 for 8 years, while most truthers have evolved over the same period and come to a completely different conclusion.

That doesn't necessarily mean that all debunkers are suffering from the Irreducible Delusion, but it does mean that most truthers are not.
 
You're missing the point. The Irreducible Delusion does not lead to a complete shift in position. It's an explanation why some people refuse to abandon their original theory.

Now it just so happens that the debunkers have held on to their original theory of 9/11 for 8 years, while most truthers have evolved over the same period and come to a completely different conclusion.

That doesn't necessarily mean that all debunkers are suffering from the Irreducible Delusion, but it does mean that most truthers are not.
Is this still true if all physical (hell, all) evidence points to the debunker's being correct?:rolleyes:
 
Nobody is interested in how many fire extinguishers it would take to put out a fire the size of a city block. We are talking about WTC7 where there was almost no fire relatively speaking.

No Bill, you said they should have been able to put out the fires with fire extinguishers.

The "small" fires you keep pointing out show fires that are the size of a city block. Its very simple... the debris hits the south side, starts fires, the fire pushes all the way through the building. Thats why you can see fire coming out those floors on the North Side.

For the sake of argument, lets accept that those are the only fires in the building. The ones where you can see flames, okay? So you can stop trying to prove that.

Now, you said they should have been able to extinguish them with commercial office fire extinguishers. So it is very relevant to ask how many you believe they would have needed to gather in order to put that kind of fire out?
 
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And yet, posted pictures of the fires shortly after the collapse of the tower, and yet, no response from Bill......

Geeeee............Wonder why...........:rolleyes:
 
No Bill, you said they should have been able to put out the fires with fire extinguishers.

The "small" fires you keep pointing out show fires that are the size of a city block. Its very simple... the debris hits the south side, starts fires, the fire pushes all the way through the building. Thats why you can see fire coming out those floors on the North Side.

For the sake of argument, lets accept that those are the only fires in the building. The ones where you can see flames, okay? So you can stop trying to prove that.

Now, you said they should have been able to extinguish them with commercial office fire extinguishers. So it is very relevant to ask how many you believe they would have needed to gather in order to put that kind of fire out?

I sometimes think that they are allowing the Truth about 9/11 to surface. I'm sure they could do more to stop stuff like Jessie Ventura and so on. I hope they are not going to leave their poor old debunkers hanging out to dry like sacrificial lambs.
 
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Aactually Bill, that is one thing that America is known for. Aand that is, Freedom of Speach. It doesn't matter that we all know that Ventura is full of bovine feces, but, being an American, he is entitled to his opinion.

Ps, would you care to address EDX's question? You even quoted it.

Care to address it?
 
To break a structure with a mass it is designed to handle
Just how much weight per square foot do you think the floor system of the WTC was designed to handle?

I don't know about the Port Authority code, but in Chicago it's 150 lbs per square foot.
 
Edx said:
No Bill, you said they should have been able to put out the fires with fire extinguishers.

The "small" fires you keep pointing out show fires that are the size of a city block. Its very simple... the debris hits the south side, starts fires, the fire pushes all the way through the building. Thats why you can see fire coming out those floors on the North Side.

For the sake of argument, lets accept that those are the only fires in the building. The ones where you can see flames, okay? So you can stop trying to prove that.

Now, you said they should have been able to extinguish them with commercial office fire extinguishers. So it is very relevant to ask how many you believe they would have needed to gather in order to put that kind of fire out?

I sometimes think that they are allowing the Truth about 9/11 to surface. I'm sure they could do more to stop stuff like Jessie Ventura and so on. I hope they are not going to leave their poor old debunkers hanging out to dry like sacrificial lambs.

Bill what does this have to do with my question?
 
Not surprising... he's incredibly stubborn when it comes to his baseline assumptions and he's going to stick with them no matter how many times he gets reminded that those assumptions fail on arrival.
An "indestructible delusion"? :p
 
No Bill, you said they should have been able to put out the fires with fire extinguishers.

The "small" fires you keep pointing out show fires that are the size of a city block. Its very simple... the debris hits the south side, starts fires, the fire pushes all the way through the building. Thats why you can see fire coming out those floors on the North Side.

For the sake of argument, lets accept that those are the only fires in the building. The ones where you can see flames, okay? So you can stop trying to prove that.

Now, you said they should have been able to extinguish them with commercial office fire extinguishers. So it is very relevant to ask how many you believe they would have needed to gather in order to put that kind of fire out?
It is tiresome to deal with somebody of such limited capacity. I have explained all this to you before several times.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5393344&postcount=1622

Furthermore there were no fires the size of a city block . Zero. See attached ideo of zero fires in about 20 different perspectives of WTC7. You and the Readers will note that far from a city block-sized fire as you maintain, there are no visible fires at all.Lying will not help. And remember- this was at the time of the actual collapse when you would expect to see the most fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZsA3xb2kOA&feature=player_embedded Many views
 
It is tiresome to deal with somebody of such limited capacity. I have explained all this to you before several times.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5393344&postcount=1622

Furthermore there were no fires the size of a city block . Zero. See attached ideo of zero fires in about 20 different perspectives of WTC7. You and the Readers will note that far from a city block-sized fire as you maintain, there are no visible fires at all.Lying will not help. And remember- this was at the time of the actual collapse when you would expect to see the most fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZsA3xb2kOA&feature=player_embedded Many views

The WTC7 building covered an entire block.

The fires were started on the south side and progressed all the way over to the north side.

Therefore the fires were the size of a city block.

How many fire extinguishers would you have collected to put out Building 7's fires?
 

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