Will the real 10 year cost of ObamaCare be over $6 trillion?

[johnny karate]

So do I. Which is why I want them to have the opportunity to succeed, rather than being beholden to a bloated government the rest of their lives.

... and if they can't quite do it on their own, let 'em die in the street, right? Quite a "morality" you're defending there.

It would be the "reality" where people do a better job of handling their money than the government does, where private organizations do a better job of fighting any social ill from poverty to disease than does the government, and where individual choice does a better job at virtually anything than does a public mandate.
But now we're just clashing the standard rhetoric; none of this has much to do with the Democrats' most recent attempts to destroy American exceptionalism. We should trim it back to the OP.

And in doing so, allow me to give you another dose of "reality": The U.S. is the wealthiest nation in the world, and yet tens of thousands of its citizens die every year due to lack of access to proper healthcare. I guess those people just aren't "exceptional" enough, huh?

 

[AvalonXQ]

I'll have to keep this bit of staggering irony in mind next time I read about some Conservative morons building a "museum" featuring Jesus riding a stegosaurus.

Yes, obviously some "conservatives" (if they even are) having fringe religious beliefs is exactly the same as the core governing officials of your party putting together bills in secret, frantically debating on them before the public has the opportunity to see or read them, and passing them at midnight on a weekend.

 

[AvalonXQ]

... and if they can't quite do it on their own, let 'em die in the street, right? Quite a "morality" you're defending there.

Apparently if I don't want the government to give them everything I want them to die.
Despite the fact that private charity is far more effective, forget that -- if we don't FORCE people to give their money to the poor, we're not being MORAL enough, right?
It doesn't occur to you that morality is about making decisions, not about stealing?

 

[johnny karate]

Yes, obviously some "conservatives" (if they even are) having fringe religious beliefs is exactly the same as the core governing officials of your party putting together bills in secret, frantically debating on them before the public has the opportunity to see or read them, and passing them at midnight on a weekend.

Since none of this has occurred in relation to the healthcare debate, I'm not sure what your point is.

But suffice it to say, when you're defending a politcal party whose base includes religious zealots who think The Flintstones is historically accurate, it's probably not wise to accuse others of having agendas of ignorance and indoctrination.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Since none of this has occurred in relation to the healthcare debate, I'm not sure what your point is.

Your ignorance of what has occurred actually proves my point -- liberals hide everything they can because, if it were all out in the open, they'd never get the American people to go along with what they want even for a moment.

 

[johnny karate]

Apparently if I don't want the government to give them everything I want them to die.
Despite the fact that private charity is far more effective, forget that -- if we don't FORCE people to give their money to the poor, we're not being MORAL enough, right?
It doesn't occur to you that morality is about making decisions, not about stealing?

Who said you should be forced to give anything to the poor? What were discussing in this thread is a sustainable universal healthcare system that would end up actually costing people less than the current one. You know, like the one that pretty much every industrialized nation in the world has.

And as an aside (assuming you're an American citizen) do you feel you are being stolen from when you are FORCED to pay taxes to fund two wars, or is just being FORCED to pay taxes for programs that might actually help people that so deeply offends you?

 

[johnny karate]

Your ignorance of what has occurred actually proves my point -- liberals hide everything they can because, if it were all out in the open, they'd never get the American people to go along with what they want even for a moment.

This is the part where I ask you to substantiate your claim with evidence.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Who said you should be forced to give anything to the poor?

Who said that the poor should be left to die in the streets?

 

[johnny karate]

Who said that the poor should be left to die in the streets?

Anyone against reforming the current defective U.S. healthcare system that kills tens of thousands of people every year.

(And I've got a newsflash for you, not everyone in the U.S. that lacks access to proper healthcare is poor.)

 

[AvalonXQ]

Anyone against reforming the current defective U.S. healthcare system that kills tens of thousands of people every year.

Well, considering that I haven't met a single politician or politically-minded person who's against healthcare reform, that's an interesting straw man you've built yourself there.
Just because people don't want the government doing the same "amazing" job on the rest of healthcare that they've done with corrupt, unworkable, bankrupt Medicare and Medicaid doesn't mean these same people are against actual reform.

 

[Lurker]

Well, considering that I haven't met a single politician or politically-minded person who's against healthcare reform, that's an interesting straw man you've built yourself there.

The devil is in the details. A lot of Republican noise has been trumpeting health savings accounts. Not sure how that would solve any of the problems for lower income people and even for middle class people all it would do is reduce their health care costs by 10-20% and only if they had the ability to save for them in advance. Not many people put aside thousands of dollars to save for medical care they may or may not need in the future.

Just because people don't want the government doing the same "amazing" job on the rest of healthcare that they've done with corrupt, unworkable, bankrupt Medicare and Medicaid doesn't mean these same people are against actual reform.

Then let them come up with substantive ideas instead of ideas that will have no impact on our problems. But at least they can say they have alternatives and being able to say that is what seems to matter.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Then let them come up with substantive ideas instead of ideas that will have no impact on our problems. But at least they can say they have alternatives and being able to say that is what seems to matter.

What there actual ideas are would matter more if the Democrats were engaging in the open dialogue they promised they would, rather than engaging in the secret closed-door negotiations they promised they would avoid. Remember what Pelosi said: the Repubs lost, so they need to shut up and let us do what we want.

 

[johnny karate]

Well, considering that I haven't met a single politician or politically-minded person who's against healthcare reform, that's an interesting straw man you've built yourself there.
Just because people don't want the government doing the same "amazing" job on the rest of healthcare that they've done with corrupt, unworkable, bankrupt Medicare and Medicaid doesn't mean these same people are against actual reform.

Then perhaps you can direct me to the healthcare reform the Republicans are proposing?

 

[AvalonXQ]

A lot of Republican noise has been trumpeting health savings accounts. Not sure how that would solve any of the problems for lower income people and even for middle class people all it would do is reduce their health care costs by 10-20% and only if they had the ability to save for them in advance. Not many people put aside thousands of dollars to save for medical care they may or may not need in the future.

The main proposals I've heard from conservatives have involved finding ways to make private health insurance affordable. Things like allowing small business to band together to negotiate for group rates, removing the state-by-state restrictions so that insurance providers are forced to compete nationally, and finding a way to make health care costs more transparent for consumers (so doctors can't charge more than the market bears). Essentially trying to make health care look more like other private industries that work properly, rather than making health care look like other government-run programs that work terribly.

 

[johnny karate]

What there actual ideas are would matter more if the Democrats were engaging in the open dialogue they promised they would, rather than engaging in the secret closed-door negotiations they promised they would avoid. Remember what Pelosi said: the Repubs lost, so they need to shut up and let us do what we want.

This is the part where I once again request you substantiate your claim with evidence.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Then perhaps you can direct me to the healthcare reform the Republicans are proposing?

http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare

 

[Lurker]

The main proposals I've heard from conservatives have involved finding ways to make private health insurance affordable.

OK, let's take a look.

Things like allowing small business to band together to negotiate for group rates,

Is there anything stopping businesses right now from doing this? I agree with the principle, and think it might make a difference if they can't for some reason badn together already.

removing the state-by-state restrictions so that insurance providers are forced to compete nationally,

The competition is there already, all this would do is all insurers would flock to the state with the most corporation friendly rules and base out of there. If you can ensure that the insurance companies still have to obey all laws of the state they sell in that this idea is ok. I'm not sure how much of a problem lack of competition is though.

and finding a way to make health care costs more transparent for consumers (so doctors can't charge more than the market bears).

Transparency is good. Why can't a doctor charge what he wants? Are you advocating socialism?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Transparency is good. Why can't a doctor charge what he wants? Are you advocating socialism?

The market works if the same person is that is receiving the goods is also paying for them. In a functional market, if one doctor charges too much, another doctor will charge less and patients will go to that doctor instead. The government doesn't step in and tell the doctor how much to charge; the market does.
But, right now, if I have health insurance, I go to the hospital and never even see a bill. I don't shop around, and I don't object if the doctor charges a lot. This disconnect causes problems.
The solution isn't clear to me -- but changing out my insurance company for the government is definitely NOT a good solution.

 

[johnny karate]

http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare

And this was the CBO's evisceration of that proposal. Among other things, it's makes no provisions to actually get more people covered, nor does it include a ban on pre-existing condition discrimination.

Maybe I'm being overly pedantic, but when I asked for the Republican healthcare reform proposal, I kind of expected it to include actual reform.

You got anything else? Or are you content to leave it at the Republicans being a bunch of hypocrites who claim to want healthcare reform, but offer no real solutions to bring it about?

 

[johnny karate]

The solution isn't clear to me -- but changing out my insurance company for the government is definitely NOT a good solution.

And since no one is proposing such a solution, you have nothing to worry about.