Obama and the Gay Military...

[Bill Thompson]

If I had a gay son or daughter I would advise them to not join the US military.
My my doing so, I think, I would be acting as a reasonably concerned parent.

Would you agree or disagree?

And this would be even more so if they were my son instead of my daughter.

Would you agree or disagree?

And I think it would be more likely that they would be victimized if DADT was removed
as an official policy.

Would you agree or disagree?

And please do not answer if you do not have any personal experience and only have
the movies or TV reports to formulate an opinion.

 

[GreyICE]

Quick Bill, tell everyone they're living in the matrix and threaten them with physical violence outside of the forums! That was fun!

 

[Alan]

Hi.

You dodged it yet again. I use "fired" to mean "discharged".

Please don't feign ignorance about what this question is asking again. You know what it means. Please answer it.

Would say "shut up" before the person got to say the gender of a partner if you knew they were going to, and if you'd want them to be discharged if they said it? Regardless of the sex of their partner.

 

[cwalner]

That does not make any sense. What is fair about the miltiary or war?

And, like I have said about 5 times, straight soldiers are also told how they can and cannot behave sexually. It is not like the civilian world.

Military rules are strict, but they need not be arbitrary. Due to the nature of the mission, officers are allowed to administer corporal punishment, because discipline is very important. This does not mean that officers are allowed to have an enlisted soldier punished because the officer was bored. There are rules and regulations determing when and how various punishments are meted out. While strict, it is fair, because it is not arbitrary.

Yes, there are rules restricting the sexual behaviour of soldiers and rules such as 'officers shalt not engage in hanky-panky with enlisted soldiers' makes sense and is similar (although more severe) to sexual harrasments rules in the civilian world. The point is this rule can still apply and without regard to the genders of the officer and the enlisted soldier. you are arguing for further restricting the sexual behaviour of only gay soldiers and not provided any compelling reason as to how this benefits the functioning of the military.

Name one.

Fraterinaztion rules, see above.

If I had a gay son or daughter I would advise them to not join the US military.
My my doing so, I think, I would be acting as a reasonably concerned parent.

Would you agree or disagree?

And this would be even more so if they were my son instead of my daughter.

Would you agree or disagree?

And I think it would be more likely that they would be victimized if DADT was removed
as an official policy.

Would you agree or disagree?

And please do not answer if you do not have any personal experience and only have
the movies or TV reports to formulate an opinion.

1. Disagree. While it is your right as a parent to advise your child regarding actions he/she is considering, the implication is that you are advising against this simply because your child is gay. Your child's sexuality has no bearing on how patriotic he/she is and what they can offer as part of the military.

2. Disagree. The military is still very sexist and there are more reports of abuse of female soldiers than of gay soldiers. If your reasons for advising against joining because of potential of abuse, a lesbian would face both anti-gay bias and anti-female bias and would more likely to be abused.

3. Strongly Disagree. I know as someone who used to live in the closet and was fearful of being outed that if someone demanded something of me and threatened to out me if I didn't do it, I would have been much less likely to report it and more likely to be victimized because of this. A policy that punishes gay soldiers for coming out forces them into the closet, so any bully who finds out has a threat to ensure silence while victimizing the person (This need not be sexual victimization, but could be for anything the bully wishes to get from the victim, such as money, favors, etc.)

 

[Sledge]

DADT was intended to be a practice to make things more fair<drivel snipped>

You haven't answered my question, Bill. So once again you're saying we should discriminate against homosexuals to allow religious extremists to feel comfortable. Why is that?

 

[Bill Thompson]

You haven't answered my question, Bill. So once again you're saying we should discriminate against homosexuals to allow religious extremists to feel comfortable. Why is that?

"should" is such a powerful word. It is not our call. It certainly is not your call. "we should"? You mean you and I? You mean the American public? It is not even easy for the American public to acquire any change in this case.

How is the relationship between the military and the general public in the UK?

No, I am not saying that "we should discriminate against homosexuals to allow religious extremists to feel comfortable". This idea is something that came out of you after what you read had a chance to bounce around for a while.

I am saying this. The military is not primarily in business to be fair and kind to their servicemen and women. One of their overriding goals is to keep the enlistment and reenlistment quotas up. The fact simply remains that the United States is, was, and has been a nation founded by religious extremists and populated by religious extremists. Open gays would be outnumbered by people opposed to them for just being gay. This has two consequences. The number of gay victimization in the military could conceivably skyrocket. This would destroy morale and whole lives. Another consequence is that the number of people willing to enlist might plummet for simple "religious" reasons.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Fraterinaztion rules, see above.

The fraternization rules rules promote goodness and fairness? I can see how you cold argue this point. But that is a double edge sword that also prevents affairs of the heart.

 

[Bill Thompson]

1. Disagree. While it is your right as a parent to advise your child regarding actions he/she is considering, the implication is that you are advising against this simply because your child is gay. Your child's sexuality has no bearing on how patriotic he/she is and what they can offer as part of the military.

That is crazy. You assume that I would not want them to go into the military because they are gay?!?! You missed the boat here. I am talking about a culture with a record of being hostile to gays.

2. Disagree. The military is still very sexist and there are more reports of abuse of female soldiers than of gay soldiers. If your reasons for advising against joining because of potential of abuse, a lesbian would face both anti-gay bias and anti-female bias and would more likely to be abused.

Are you in the miltary? "Reports"!?! From where? Do you trust military reports regarding "suicide" and "friendly fire"?

 

[linusrichard]

If I had a gay son or daughter I would advise them to not join the US military.

That is crazy. You assume that I would not want them to go into the military because they are gay?!?! You missed the boat here.

My head a splode.

 

[Sledge]

"should" is such a powerful word. It is not our call. It certainly is not your call. "we should"? You mean you and I? You mean the American public? It is not even easy for the American public to acquire any change in this case.

How is the relationship between the military and the general public in the UK?

No, I am not saying that "we should discriminate against homosexuals to allow religious extremists to feel comfortable". This idea is something that came out of you after what you read had a chance to bounce around for a while.

I am saying this. The military is not primarily in business to be fair and kind to their servicemen and women. One of their overriding goals is to keep the enlistment and reenlistment quotas up. The fact simply remains that the United States is, was, and has been a nation founded by religious extremists and populated by religious extremists. Open gays would be outnumbered by people opposed to them for just being gay. This has two consequences. The number of gay victimization in the military could conceivably skyrocket. This would destroy morale and whole lives. Another consequence is that the number of people willing to enlist might plummet for simple "religious" reasons.

Finally an answer. We can move on. What is your source for the religious makeup of the United States Armed Forces?

 

[Bill Thompson]

Finally an answer. We can move on. What is your source for the religious makeup of the United States Armed Forces?

I am an american who was born here and served 3 years in the military and was in a combat situation during the Lebanese Peace Keeping effort and I served 3 more years in inactive reserved and for about 40 days in the Pentagon at the end of the career.

I have heard and seen things most people would not believe.

I worked in an office and with people who knew what kind of things were really happening and why.

I have close friends who are Mormon. I have lived in the Deep South and also in the Mid West and also in Central California (yep, there is a large intolerant population even in California). I have known southern Baptists in High School and college. I know what straight people say when they are drunk and they let their guard down and expose what is really in their heart -- especially when they are young and want to prove what they consider to be their "manliness".

I also have 3 close gay male friends and 2 close lesbians and I think they seem to live in a world of "should"s and "could"s and "hopes" that are not as the real world is like in the USA.

How about you? Where do you get your ideas, apart from pulling one or two things I write and morphing them into a kind of illegitimate love child. I still find your "Savage Rednecks" supposition amusing.

Is it because you are from the UK? I have no idea why that would mean anything.

I have noticed that liberals seem to feel they have the right to point to other cultures and tell them where they should change or where they are wrong. I wonder how soon people will tire of Hillary Clinton traveling to the Mid East and south Asia only to demand that they should respect women's rights more.

 

[Bill Thompson]

My head a splode.

I am talking about a culture with a record of being hostile to gays.. You still seemed to miss my point.

 

[Sledge]

Sorry, Bill, you seem to have read my question as "Please post some rambling nonsense." I repeat: what is your source for the religious makeup of the United States Armed Forces?

 

[BardKesnit]

Are hate crimes against lesbians more or less than hate crimes against gay men?

They are the same. Hate crimes are hate crimes, no matter who the target is.

Are hate crimes more or less likely against all gays if they are open in the US military?

I would say less likely if gays could serve openly. As it is right now, gays can be abused because the tormenters know the gays cannot complain to the chain of command for fear of being kicked out. Attacks will still happen, but if gays can report the abuse without fear, the tormenters can be punished.

Have you seen the movie "Broke Back Mountain"? Of course it is just a movie but do you think the ending (provided you saw the movie) is something that occurs?

I never saw it, so I can't answer.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That is crazy. You assume that I would not want them to go into the military because they are gay?!?! You missed the boat here. I am talking about a culture with a record of being hostile to gays.Are you in the miltary? "Reports"!?! From where? Do you trust military reports regarding "suicide" and "friendly fire"?

Clearly you would have advised Truman against integrating the military. Its bigotry is just so fundamental to its character.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Clearly you would have advised Truman against integrating the military. Its bigotry is just so fundamental to its character.

Truman? President Truman? THe Truman who was the head of the CIA? Truman Capotee (sp?).

Clearly I have not advised anyone since I do not know what you mean.

Are you saying I am a bigot? Dude, you are not making any sense. Exactly why I am a bigot? Is that just the default slot you put someone in who you think is anti-gay without bothering to understand where he is coming from?

You are a lazy and rude person.

The Navy Covers Up Deaths that are first reported as suicide and friendly fire. This is a fact. Do you need me to pull up the examples?

Sorry, Bill, you seem to have read my question as "Please post some rambling nonsense." I repeat: what is your source for the religious makeup of the United States Armed Forces?

It is reasonablly the same as the religious makeup of the United States and that can be found by just pulling up the CIA fact book online.

I also have my own personal experience to draw from.

What part is nonsense that I have posted? I have asked you to explain yourself and you resort to silliness and insults. I think this is all just a game to you. Is it?

You have also misquoted me. So what you think is nonsense is probably just your inability to understand.

I have been accused of having a low opinion of humanity and/or military servicemen. I do not know who you think we are, but human beings are animals. Peel back the thin veneer that we use to convince each other of our intelligence and there lies the raging ape that we all are: sexist, angry and desperate and hopeless.

Look at the news today. The world's number one golfer with a squeaky clean image has been exposed for being what none of us would have imagined that he is.

No one, it seems, is taught the concept of the ying and the yang. What appears cold and heartless on the outside is good at its core and what appears good on the outside is heartless at its core.

The same at times is with American Culture. Just google L. Ron's son Quinton Hubbard and his death. It was ruled a suicide despite all the evidence that said it was not. I believe the same fate often befalls many openly gay men in the US military -- or it is not unreasonable to believe so.

http://en.allexperts.com/e/q/qu/quentin_hubbard.htm

It has been shown that the military in the USA covers up deaths that occur in suspicious circumstances.

 

[zooterkin]

I have been accused of having a low opinion of humanity and/or military servicemen.

It follows from what you wrote.

I do not know who you think we are, but human beings are animals. Peel back the thin veneer that we use to convince each other of our intelligence

Some are clearly more convincing than others.

Look at the news today. The world's number one golfer with a squeaky clean image has been exposed for being what none of us would have imagined that he is.

How is this relevant?

No one, it seems, is taught the concept of the ying

tong iddle i po.

and the yang. What appears cold and heartless on the outside is good at its core and what appears good on the outside is heartless at its core.

Invariably?

The same at times is with American Culture. Just google L. Ron's son Quinton Hubbard and his death. It was ruled a suicide despite all the evidence that said it was not. I believe the same fate often befalls many openly gay men in the US military -- or it is not unreasonable to believe so.

http://en.allexperts.com/e/q/qu/quentin_hubbard.htm

[qimg]http://www.whyaretheydead.info/Quentin_Hubbard_22/quentin.jpg[/qimg]

It has been shown that the military in the USA covers up deaths that occur in suspicious circumstances.

And the connection between someone who was not in the military and died over thirty years ago (when, apart from anything else, attitudes in general were much different) and the army of today is what, exactly. Sorry, Bill, I think you've forgotten to put your veneer on, today.

 

[Bill Thompson]

It follows from what you wrote.

It follows from misreading what I wrote.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Some are clearly more convincing than others.

That is untrue and shows you watch too many cop dramas or TV mysteries.

When I was in combat, I watched the personalities of 5000 servicemen radically change and I was not the only one who noticed it.

 

[Bill Thompson]

How is this relevant?

Many things are not as we would like to believe they are.

And many people do not see it even when they are shown as you just have.

Quote:
No one, it seems, is taught the concept of the ying

tong iddle i po.

Quote:
and the yang. What appears cold and heartless on the outside is good at its core and what appears good on the outside is heartless at its core.

Invariably?

THe fact that you cut my point in half and thus missed it is very telling.