Obama and the Gay Military...

[ponderingturtle]

You are a liar. It means that the military is not allowed to ask a servicemen of their sexual orientation and an individual has the right not to tell.

Hey, I am just trying to make it straights have the same restrictions as gays. Clearly as there is enforced celibacy for both it is perfectly equal. If one side can get their partners recognised and the other not, then they lack the same rights. See a gay partner try to collect death benefits. You said they had the same rights so wives like gay lovers can not recieve death benefits.

Or they don't have the same rights.

 

[ponderingturtle]

And so it is the only one you choose to attack.

Ummm, did you not notice your responses to my other attacks on your arguments?

Do you believe in magic? Do you think if you break the weakest argument, you change reality like breaking a link in a chain?

There are other arguments you have made that I have refuted as well. Your contention that repealing DADT would effect the regulations against fraternization for one. That is patently false and a blatant lie. It shows you are either uninformed or intellectually dishonest.

 

[Alan]

What are you getting at?

You use words like "fired" as if it is a civilian job. So I don't know what the heck you are talking about.

You dodged it yet again. I use "fired" to mean "discharged".

Please don't feign ignorance about what this question is asking again. You know what it means. Please answer it.

Would say "shut up" before the person got to say the gender of a partner if you knew they were going to, and if you'd want them to be discharged if they said it? Regardless of the sex of their partner.

 

[Sledge]

Look into the policies and practices regarding homosexuality among the following formidable groups in the USA and imagine how they would take to having their fellow servicemen openly discuss their sexual orientation. And then tell me if it is out of line for Generals and Admirals to merely tell their service men to keep their sexual orientation private:

The Mormons
The Evangelists
The Southern Baptists
The Scientologist
The Biblical Fundamentalists

You might think, "what better way to force social change than to remove DADT policy! What could possibly go wrong?" Taking such risks is not what the military does.

So once again you're saying we should discriminate against homosexuals to allow religious extremists to feel comfortable. Why is that?

 

[cwalner]

You might think, "what better way to force social change than to remove DADT policy! What could possibly go wrong?" Taking such risks is not what the military does.

Death: Acceptable Risk
Seeing another guys boner: Unacceptable Risk
Dismemberment: Acceptable Risk
Offending religious bigots: Unacceptable Risk
PTSD: Acceptable Risk
Embodying Social Justice: Unacceptable Risk

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Well, Bill, I am of the opinion that religious members should not be allowed to discuss their religion (actually, against the UCMJ already) because it negatively affects unit moral.

One day, I was sitting at my desk and my neighboring Airman opened up his church's website. I was scarred for life.




Explain to me how this is any different from DADT.

 

[Sledge]

Hello? Bill? You out there?

 

[Aitch]

I'm tempted to quote that with the 'there' crossed out and say 'fixed that for you'.

But even I am not that cruel.

 

[cwalner]

I'm tempted to quote that with the 'there' crossed out and say 'fixed that for you'.

But even I am not that cruel.

I'll give credit where credit is due. I tried something like that in post 609, and Bill did not take the bait

 

[Dancing David]

Death: Acceptable Risk
Seeing another guys boner: Unacceptable Risk
Dismemberment: Acceptable Risk
Offending religious bigots: Unacceptable Risk
PTSD: Acceptable Risk
Embodying Social Justice: Unacceptable Risk

 

[Bill Thompson]

The same tragic crimes that occur to women in the military often happen to gay men who are open about their oreintation. As Chaz Bono said "it is what is between your ears that determines your gender and not between your legs". I know that sexuality is diverse and a large mine field but I have known gay men who have many female characteristics. Some even look like women from a distance or from behind.

A couple of thought provoking artices written Col (Ret.) Ann Wright.

Is There an Army Cover Up of Rape and Murder of Women Soldiers?

Quote:
The Department of Defense statistics are alarming -- one in three women who join the US military will be sexually assaulted or raped by men in the military. The warnings to women should begin above the doors of the military recruiting stations, as that is where assaults on women in the military begins -- before they are even recruited.

But, now, even more alarming, are deaths of women soldiers in Iraq, and in the United States, following rape. The military has characterized each of the deaths of women who were first sexually assaulted as deaths from "non-combat related injuries," and then added "suicide." Yet, the families of the women whom the military has declared to have committed suicide, strongly dispute the findings and are calling for further investigations into the deaths of their daughters. Specific US Army units and certain US military bases in Iraq have an inordinate number of women soldiers who have died of "non-combat related injuries," with several identified as "suicides."
U.S. Military Keeping Secrets About Female Soldiers’ ‘Suicides’?

Quote:
Since I posted on April 28 the article “Is There an Army Cover Up of the Rape and Murder of Women Soldiers,” the deaths of two more U.S. Army women in Iraq and Afghanistan have been listed as suicides—the Sept. 28, 2007, death of 30-year-old Spc. Ciara Durkin and the Feb. 22, 2008, death of 25-year-old Spc. Keisha Morgan. Both “suicides” are disputed by the families of the women.

I did not think people here would imagine I was talking about crazed homosexuals going on raping frenzies. But it looks like I overestimated you.

I did not think people here would assume I was talking about servicemen in their average day-to-day duties. But it look like I overestimated you.

I have noticed that some people here have opinions that are motived by a sense that it is "the right thing" to "believe" rather than having an educated or informed opinion. That puts you on the par of peddlers of pseudo science or cult members.

 

[Alt+F4]

The same tragic crimes that occur to women in the military often happen to gay men who are open about their oreintation.

Please provide evidence that gay men are raped in the military often. Please provide evidence that there is a connection between gay rape in the miltary and DADT. According to your twisted logic women should not be allowed into the military because they might be sexually assualted.

 

[Sledge]

So you're saying that if homosexuals openly serve in the military, their comrades will rape them? Jeez, the US army is screwed up. Bill really doesn't have a high opinion of soldiers, does he?

 

[BardKesnit]

#4) Also, if you have not been in the US miltary, you really cannot know what you are arguing. In fact, if I had not been in the military I would probably be protesting against DADT because I support gay marrage and I would have lumped the two together.

I have served in the military. (5 years USN) Let me tell you about the experiences of 2 lesbian friends of mine. (I met both of them at our initial training school. They knew each other, but never dated. We kept in contact over the years.)

1) We'll call her M. M was prior enlisted Army, but after college chose to switch branches. Both in the Army and the Navy, she was very open about her orientation. EVERYONE knew, and she brought her girlfriend (when she had one) to command functions. Her direct supervisor was going through a divorce and would talk to M about relationships with women. When M told me she was getting out, I joked that she must have taken her girlfriend to the Captain's cabin to make out.

2) We'll call this one E. E had a girlfriend prior to joining the Navy, and they stayed together (though never lived together) through E's 5 years. E originally wanted to go career, so decided to try to play by the rules by not acknowledging her relationship. She even changed her girlfriend's name to a guy's name when talking about her girlfriend. A few years later, E realized she had not fooled anyone. All her friends and co-workers knew she is a lesbian - and none of them had cared. (This included the 5 other female officers E shared a stateroom with.)

You can say that the Navy is more open. (I've heard it is, though have no way to know personally.) You can say that the difference is that E and M were officers, not enlisted. (Perhaps, although M was openly gay when enlisted.) But the fact is, gays can and do serve OPENLY now, without morale or shower issues. I've seen it firsthand.

 

[Bill Thompson]

In a perfect, harmonious world, there would be no need for a military. But human beings are far from
perfect and harmonious. Explain how it will make the world a better place by injecting a piece of
political correctness and forced harmony into an institution which exemplifies human imperfection.

It has been my experience that people are not good and fair by nature. People who think so have resolved
to retreat into their own fantasy world. When I press them to explain themselves the resort to
name-calling because somehow I am their enemy of their dream and hurting me will make things better.

I believe that even if DADT is removed it will still remain as an unwritten rule just for human safety.

Keeping it official is not asking too much. Much more is asked by servicemen and women.

 

[cwalner]

In a perfect, harmonious world, there would be no need for a military. But human beings are far from
perfect and harmonious. Explain how it will make the world a better place by injecting a piece of
political correctness and forced harmony into an institution which exemplifies human imperfection.

Just because we cannot make the world perfect, does not mean that we should not attempt to improve it in any way that we have the means to do so. Treating gay soldiers the same as straight soldiers is not about political correctness, it is about fairness. You are correct that improving the military to make it more fair in how it treats its soldiers is a small step, but a bunch of small steps add up to make measureable improvements in the world. DADT replacing an outright ban was a small step in the right direction. That was about 15 years ago. It is time to take the next step.

It has been my experience that people are not good and fair by nature. People who think so have resolved
to retreat into their own fantasy world. When I press them to explain themselves the resort to
name-calling because somehow I am their enemy of their dream and hurting me will make things better.

You are correct that not all people are not good and fair by nature. That is why we have laws that enforce goodness and fairness. Because the chain of command is something that can be easily abused, the military already has policies in place that enforce goodness and fairness.. All we are asking is that these policies extend to the sexual orientation of soldiers.

I believe that even if DADT is removed it will still remain as an unwritten rule just for human safety.

This statement puts the lie to your repeated claims that you have no issues with gay people. The assumption that openly serving gays pose some threat demonstrates a clear bias against gays despite your protestations to the contrary.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I have served in the military. (5 years USN) Let me tell you about the experiences of 2 lesbian friends of mine. (I met both of them at our initial training school. They knew each other, but never dated. We kept in contact over the years.)...

Are hate crimes against lesbians more or less than hate crimes against gay men?
Are hate crimes more or less likely against all gays if they are open in the US military?

Have you seen the movie "Broke Back Mountain"? Of course it is just a movie but do you think the ending (provided you saw the movie) is something that occurs? Do you think it occurs more often in the USA than in the UK? I think the story centers around cowboys because the author wanted it to be set in middle america for a reason.

Do you think that sort of killing happens more in the USA than in the UK? Would you think that sort of killing is more likely to happen in the US military? Would you think it would be more likely or less likely if gays were more open?

 

[Bill Thompson]

Just because we cannot make the world perfect, does not mean that we should not attempt to improve it in any way that we have the means to do so. Treating gay soldiers the same as straight soldiers is not about political correctness, it is about fairness.

That does not make any sense. What is fair about the miltiary or war?

And, like I have said about 5 times, straight soldiers are also told how they can and cannot behave sexually. It is not like the civilian world.

 

[Bill Thompson]

So once again you're saying we should discriminate against homosexuals to allow religious extremists to feel comfortable. Why is that?

DADT was intended to be a practice to make things more fair, not less.

But to answer your question, the military is not in the business of treating servicemen fairly. It is not on their mission statement.

I think three things about you.

#1. You don't know what DADT really is.
#2. You have not been in the military.
#3. You have never been to the States.

 

[Bill Thompson]

You are correct that not all people are not good and fair by nature. That is why we have laws that enforce goodness and fairness. Because the chain of command is something that can be easily abused, the military already has policies in place that enforce goodness and fairness..

Name one.