Hardfire: Szamboti / Chandler / Mackey

[DGM]

Holy crap.

I go off to the range for four hours, and come back to four pages of Tony arguing that FDNY was in on the plot, in which they exchange a few hundred of their own lives to let Enron off the hook (which didn't even happen).

Let me just say, without naming names, that it is getting increasingly difficult to find a Truther that isn't a broad-spectrum lunatic.

The "truth" movement has gotten a little "special" lately. But it's our fault for mudding the water.

 

[Edx]

Here you go Billy.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110154.PDF

Btw Tri do we know who the "pop pop pop" group of firefighters were? I'd like to see the interviews of them so Bill will have to find something else to moan about.

 

[triforcharity]

Repeat after me. ' I am saying that a small portion of the FDNY were involved in what happened on 9/11 '

Can you do that ? lol

PS. Do you really want me to put up the sworn statements of hundreds of firefighters testifying to heavy explosions that they thought were connected with bringing the buildings down. I bet you don't and readers should note that. The stuff I have is very convincing and I will post it when EDX here aks me to. But will he ? Does he want you to read it ? and watch the videos ? Eh ? Edx ?

Please do, and I can easily show you how they were datamined and quotemined and taken out of context.

Just do it in another thread.

 

[triforcharity]

I think there were possibly thousands of skyscrapers just full of them a stone's throw away from ground zero. What do you think ? Could that be ?

What happenes if they need them in another building??

 

[Mr.Herbert]

Bill, what it seems we have here are a bunch of individuals who will apparently say anything to continue to support the present official story, in spite of evidence showing the fires weren't fought intentionally and that the whole scenario with WTC 7 was a rig job and made to happen.

Most of the official story supporters I have encountered here at JREF have all the symptoms of Ryan Mackey's Irreducible Delusion. They simply cannot contemplate, under any circumstances, that the three building collapses were finally a result of anything but fires.

It is interesting how much attention was drawn to this thread when it was brought up that the fires in WTC 7 could have easily been fought with available equipment and the firefighting contingency design of the building.

Tony,

The crap scented spew in this thread from you is repulsive. I will be traveling to NYC tomorrow evening for a Monday meeting. Coincidentally, I will be in Lower Manhattan for this. If you have any conneries, why don't we meet me for coffee and then take a walk to one of the ladder companies down there and you can ask them why they didn't fight the fires. Explain to them how they intentionally failed to fight these fires. Will you? You spineless douche.

 

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Bill doesn't know how fire can spread on 1 floor.

Take a look Bill, the 12th floor fire spreading from 1 small area to a much larger area:



WTC7 was an office building with combustible items in it. You Truthers really don't understand the nature of fire.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Holy crap.

I go off to the range for four hours, and come back to four pages of Tony arguing that FDNY was in on the plot, in which they exchange a few hundred of their own lives to let Enron off the hook (which didn't even happen).

Let me just say, without naming names, that it is getting increasingly difficult to find a Truther that isn't a broad-spectrum lunatic.

It looks like you jumped the gun here. If you actually read what I said you would see that I do not believe the FDNY was in on the plot and that the only thing the real plotters needed to do concerning WTC 7 was to manipulate the fire chief. It isn't hard to imagine something said to him like "there has been so much loss of life maybe the best thing to do is let it burn and pull everybody away from it".

I do believe Rudy Giulliani was in on the plot and that it would not be hard for him and his accomplices to manipulate Chief Daniel Nigro.

Let us also not forget that Rudy built his Emergency Command center on the 23rd floor of WTC 7 over the objections of both the FDNY and NYPD.

Giulliani's office said WTC 7 was lost at about 12:30 PM. What basis did they have for that?

Your ad hominem comments are not becoming of an engineer Ryan.

 

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

It looks like you jumped the gun here. If you actually read what I said you would see that I do not believe the FDNY was in on the plot and that the only thing the real plotters needed to do was to manipulate the fire chief.

I do believe Rudy Giulliani was in on the plot and that it would not be hard for him and his accomplices to manipulate Chief Daniel Nigro.

Giulliani's office said WTC 7 was lost at about 12:30 PM. What basis did they have for that?

Your ad hominem comments are not becoming of an engineer Ryan.

Tony,

Noone can "manipulate" a fire chief. Not even other firefighters!

What basis did they have for that?

The FDNY trying to clear people away from the building. You weren't there so why do you insist on assumptions of your own delusional mind?

 

[R.Mackey]

It looks like you jumped the gun here. If you actually read what I said you would see that I do not believe the FDNY was in on the plot and that the only thing the real plotters needed to do was to manipulate the fire chief. It isn't hard to imagine something said to him like "there has been so much loss of life maybe the best thing to do is let it burn and pull everybody away from it".

Ah. You believe in hypnosis, I guess.

Because you're forgetting that Chief Nigro said, unequivocally, that he made the call. And why he made the call. So, either "in on it," or you're just making up more crap, as usual. Guess which one I'm betting on?

I do believe Rudy Giulliani was in on the plot and that it would not be hard for him and his accomplices to manipulate Chief Daniel Nigro.

And to this day he denies it. Maybe you just don't know anything about firefighting? Is that too hard for you to comprehend? We've already established that you can look at a video showing a tilting structure and shout that it isn't tilting, so you're not exactly hard to fool, you know.

Giulliani's office said WTC 7 was lost at about 12:30 PM. What basis did they have for that?

That was when Chief Nigro made the call. It was based on audible and visible signs of structural deterioration, and lack of resources. Duh.

Your ad hominem comments are not becoming of an engineer Ryan.

Says the guy accusing Chief Nigro, Mayor Giuliani, and who knows who else of mass murder on the basis of his own incompetence. I stand by my assessment.

 

[BigAl]

Giulliani's office said WTC 7 was lost at about 12:30 PM. What basis did they have for that?

Got a citation for that claim?

By noon there were lots of structural engineers on-site.

Source: 9 Months at Ground Zero.

 

[Edx]

the only thing the real plotters needed to do concerning WTC 7 was to manipulate the fire chief..

So all the firefighters that had no problem with it coming down and the ones who stayed quiet are what ...Tony?

Why wont you reply to that!

 

[twinstead]

Says the guy accusing Chief Nigro, Mayor Giuliani, and who knows who else of mass murder on the basis of his own incompetence. I stand by my assessment.

This needs to be said again.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Ah. You believe in hypnosis, I guess.

Because you're forgetting that Chief Nigro said, unequivocally, that he made the call. And why he made the call. So, either "in on it," or you're just making up more crap, as usual. Guess which one I'm betting on?



And to this day he denies it. Maybe you just don't know anything about firefighting? Is that too hard for you to comprehend? We've already established that you can look at a video showing a tilting structure and shout that it isn't tilting, so you're not exactly hard to fool, you know.



That was when Chief Nigro made the call. It was based on audible and visible signs of structural deterioration, and lack of resources. Duh.



Says the guy accusing Chief Nigro, Mayor Giuliani, and who knows who else of mass murder on the basis of his own incompetence. I stand by my assessment.

You have no proof that Nigro was not influenced in his decision.

I have not said anything about Chief Nigro being in on a plot and it is obvious in my comments. Here again you are trying to put words in my mouth. Why would you do that? I have said that I believe Rudy Giulliani was involved in a plot and I stand by that assessment. This is the guy who said "we were told the towers were going to collapse and then they did collapse", but won't tell anyone who told him that and how they would have known that. Giulliani needs to be investigated and questioned under oath also.

As far as any tilt prior to vertical drop is concerned, it is absolutely impossible to see in the video I showed. You were obviously making things up there by pretending to see it. You weren't very convincing.

I have told you that we will be doing a precise analysis of the tilt with several videos and one thing I can say unequivocally right now is that it did not tilt 8 degrees or anywhere near that prior to the entire upper section dropping several stories. Your statement that it tilted 8 degrees before it descended is nonsense and you can be forgiven if you were just touting the NIST line in the debate, but as an engineer you should be scrutinizing it now that you have been alerted to the fact that it is not an accurate assessment.

 

[WildCat]

That is ****ing insane. Do you really think that anyone willing to assist, or even turn a blind eye to the intentional demolition of those buildings is gonna suddenly sing because they are under oath...yah, right.

But T.A.M., if they commit perjury to cover up the murders they could go to jail for a year or so! They'd have no choice but to admit to a death penalty offense...


Apparently that makes sense in Trutherville.

 

[Edx]

but as an engineer you should be scrutinizing it now that you have been alerted to the fact that it is not an accurate assessment.

So when will you and Gage be posting a retraction of your explosive demolition indicators?

Like puffs of air, large dust cloud, material ejection....

You know, since we can see this in buildings that collapse without explosives.

 

[GlennB]

You have no proof that Nigro was not influenced in his decision.

Scary

 

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

You have no proof that Nigro was not influenced in his decision.

Tony,

Please read what Chief Nigro said about what you're assuming:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2990758&postcount=1

Regarding WTC 7: The long-awaited US Government NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) report on the collapse of WTC 7 is due to be published at the end of this year (although it has been delayed already a few times [ adding fuel to the conspiracy theorists fires!]). That report should explain the cause and mechanics of the collapse in great detail. Early on the afternoon of September 11th 2001, following the collapse of WTC 1 & 2, I feared a collapse of WTC 7 (as did many on my staff).
The reasons are as follows:

1 - Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed, The collapse of WTC 1 & 2 showed that certain high-rise structures subjected to damage from impact and from fire will collapse.
2. The collapse of WTC 1 damaged portions of the lower floors of WTC 7.
3. WTC 7, we knew, was built on a small number of large columns providing an open Atrium on the lower levels.
4. numerous fires on many floors of WTC 7 burned without sufficient water supply to attack them.

For these reasons I made the decision (without consulting the owner, the mayor or anyone else - as ranking fire officer, that decision was my responsibility) to clear a collapse zone surrounding the building and to stop all activity within that zone. Approximately three hours after that order was given, WTC 7 collapsed.

Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit.

Regards, Dan Nigro
Chief of Department FDNY (retired)

Tony,

I find it funny that you've just been proven wrong that Nigro was "influenced" in anyway other than what your lying eyes are telling you.

 

[T.A.M.]

But T.A.M., if they commit perjury to cover up the murders they could go to jail for a year or so! They'd have no choice but to admit to a death penalty offense...


Apparently that makes sense in Trutherville.

It is some amazing nonsense, that truther logic.

TAM

 

[Toke]

On my one week smoke divers course the fire fighter started the practical part by showing us the pumps and assuring us that the water supply was very reliable. (the water for the training centre was recycled)

We wondered a bit, but assumed that it is a concern fire fighters take very seriously, in my cluelessness I took water for granted.

I have no problem with a lack of people, equipment, and water leading to prioritising of fires to fight.
Second guessing the efforts could lead to better disaster efforts if done with enough skill and knowledge.
I believe the fire department have done that better than truthers.

 

[T.A.M.]

Logic: If elements of the USG and other institutions orchestrated the murder of 3000 Americans, they are not going to suddenly confess to anything SIMPLY because they are under oath.

Truther Logic: IF we can just get the bad guys subpoenaed, we can make them confess through tough cross examination UNDER OATH.

Logic: People with the same names as the hijackers turned up in parts of the world after 9/11 due to investigations by the FBI and CIA, and as a result of those same people wanting to clear their names.

Truther Logic: The hijackers are still alive.

Logic: Numerous people heard sounds that they described as explosions because they were in proximity to two 110 storey buildings that were hit by aircraft, burning on multiple floors, and had tremendous damage done to them. This is to be expected as many things can cause loud noises that would be described as explosions.

Truther Logic: Their testimony is evidence of explosives.


I mean the list goes on....

TAM