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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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One thing I'd like to know is, if Knox was in fact involved in this murder, how does Guede fit in to all of this?

I also think one possibility that's not really being considered much is that Sollecito was involved but that Knox was not. I'm not sure if the evidence makes such a thing plausible, but it should at least be considered.
 
skeptigirl said:
I don't know for certain the Big Bang occurred either but I can draw a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence.
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Do you have court transcripts, then? I have not suggested that Ms Knox is either guilty or innocent; I am not party to the court case. The jury found her guilty, she has an automatic right of appeal. You seem to have made up your mind based on media reports, as I presume you were not in the courtroom.

Are we any closer to establishing why cartwheels are of cultural significance and why the Italian justice system has misunderstood this?
 
Tailgater said:
SG, There is no place in the world that doing cartwheels after being accused of murder is somehow "cultural".

Addressing that and moving on would do wonders for this thread.
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For the record, I have now addressed the cartwheel issue in at least 10 different posts including the OP:

1, 34, 37, 39, 42, 44, 99, 108, 111, and post #120.

If it still isn't clear, I have little else to add. But I also have to wonder if it is not clear, why those objecting that no explanation of my point about the cartwheels has been forthcoming, have yet to address any of the specific issues I pointed out related to the cartwheels.

There are those objecting to the Italian police and the American police viewing the behavior differently. I addressed that specifically in posts 42, 44, 99, 111 & 120.

There are those who don't see the relevance at all. I specifically addressed that with the slew of news articles not only making a big deal of the significance of the cartwheel behavior but also most of them actually put it in the headline. See post #108.

The rest of the objections seem to think I have not addressed the cartwheel point. Those objections are not worth further discussion beyond the 10 posts plus this one.


Edited to add regarding the cartwheels after being accused of murder, it is my understanding the cartwheels were before Knox was accused, not after.
 
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Agatha said:
Do you have court transcripts, then? I have not suggested that Ms Knox is either guilty or innocent; I am not party to the court case. The jury found her guilty, she has an automatic right of appeal. You seem to have made up your mind based on media reports, as I presume you were not in the courtroom.

Are we any closer to establishing why cartwheels are of cultural significance and why the Italian justice system has misunderstood this?
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You posted a forum list of claimed evidence without a single citation for the information. I and others here have posted a lot of information from various sources. Feel free to assign credibility to your source over the rest of the sources linked to here. I don't find it worth debating what someone listed in a forum post.
 
maxpower1227 said:
One thing I'd like to know is, if Knox was in fact involved in this murder, how does Guede fit in to all of this?

I also think one possibility that's not really being considered much is that Sollecito was involved but that Knox was not. I'm not sure if the evidence makes such a thing plausible, but it should at least be considered.
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There is no more credible evidence against Sollecito than there is evidence against Knox.
 
So do you now regret saying she was guilty "all because of a cartwheel"? Because that statement has now been rendered utterly and completely ridiculous.

Lesson to all: it is really really hard to get a good thread out of a completely insane and idiotic thread title and opening post. Lots of people intentionally make inflammatory/false headlines to try to get attention to their thread, but you rarely get fruitful discussions that way.
 
skeptigirl said:
I think that kind of clueless behavior in a police station 3 days after the fact while they were waiting (I presume) not while they were being questioned would be pretty common among the youth in this country.
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If that is true I think it is beyond odd: but there appear to be some americans here who do not agree with you. So far I have not seen anyone support your proposition.

This is from a 2007 news story: Meredith Kercher ‘killed after refusing orgy’

And this: Diary of murdered student could hold clues to her killer, police sayThe broken window according the the BBC news report Agatha posted was in a third room.
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I knew the broken window was in a third room.

So what we are asked to believe is: the perpetrator broke into the house through a window which faced on to a busy road and which he could not reach without a ladder. He was disturbed by the victim's return to the house while he was robbing it. He then decided to rape and kill her, so he went into her room and locked the bedroom door. When it was over he chose to leave through the window (which faced he same way, though I do not know if it was high or not) rather than the door (which was open even though he did not come through it? ); but he took the trouble to open the bedroom door and leave a bloody footprint in the hall. Then he went back into the bedroom and again locked the door and left through the window?

And the next day Ms Knox returned to the house by herself: found the door open and went in ( I have come back to my house and found the door open and the glass panel smashed: I did not go in, though of course I do not have flatmates and that makes a big difference, very likely. I would think it would still make you cautious) She then went straight to her room (fair enough) and changed for a shower. She found blood in the bathroom (having presumably missed the blood in the hall): and even with the open door she went on to have a shower.

To be honest I would not be surprised if the jury discarded most or all of the DNA infighting: and concentrated on this kind of evidence. It is not nothing and this is only part of it

It is true we have to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt: it is not true that we must suspend everything we know about people and render ourselves wholly credulous
 
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Tailgater said:
SG, There is no place in the world that doing cartwheels after being accused of murder is somehow "cultural".

Addressing that and moving on would do wonders for this thread.
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This is off topic but needs to be said. People who have been (rightly or wrongly) accused of crimes sometimes exhibit bizarre behavior because they are under an amazing and unimaginable amount of stress. Whether they did it or not, they are facing about the worst thing you can ever face and can't behave like rational human beings.

There's a scene in the documentary film Capturing the Friedmans - a film about two people falsely accused of mass child molestation - where one of the accused dances and mugs for the camera on the courthouse steps with his two older brothers...as he is being sentenced to more than a decade in prison. With the families of the alleged victims around.

The parents later said they saw this as proof of his arrogance, heartlessness and criminality. The reverse is true; the poor fellow was playing around as an outlet for his fear and desperation.

So just because someone exhibits vastly inappropriate behavior in court or at the police station or in private after being arrested doesn't mean they are guilty. Neither does it mean they are innocent. It doesn't necessarily mean anything.
 
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David Wong said:
So do you now regret saying she was guilty "all because of a cartwheel"? Because that statement has now been rendered utterly and completely ridiculous.

Lesson to all: it is really really hard to get a good thread out of a completely insane and idiotic thread title and opening post. Lots of people intentionally make inflammatory/false headlines to try to get attention to their thread, but you rarely get fruitful discussions that way.
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Agreed
 
EeneyMinnieMoe said:
This is off topic but needs to be said. People who have been (rightly or wrongly) accused of crimes sometimes exhibit bizarre behavior
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But didn't the cartwheeling occur while she was waiting to be questioned - and thus before she had been accused of anything?
 
David Wong said:
So do you now regret saying she was guilty "all because of a cartwheel"? Because that statement has now been rendered utterly and completely ridiculous.

Lesson to all: it is really really hard to get a good thread out of a completely insane and idiotic thread title and opening post. Lots of people intentionally make inflammatory/false headlines to try to get attention to their thread, but you rarely get fruitful discussions that way.
Click to expand...

Lesson to all 2: it is really really easy to get humans to act like dogs. Just ring the bell. The saliva flows.
 
David Wong said:
So do you now regret saying she was guilty "all because of a cartwheel"? Because that statement has now been rendered utterly and completely ridiculous.
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I don't get the obsession with the cartwheel in this thread not being relevant. See post #127 if you need to review my position on this matter.
 
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Fiona said:
If that is true I think it is beyond odd: but there appear to be some americans here who do not agree with you. So far I have not seen anyone support your proposition.
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I'm not sure what your point is here. The cartwheels were brought up in the trial as evidence Knox was behaving oddly. I hear you to say you agree the cartwheels were such evidence of odd behavior.

But my argument has more context than just the cartwheels. The cartwheels were not unusual for a dumb young adult who was oblivious to the fact the police viewed her behavior as odd. I do think the false assessment of supposed suspicious behavior occurs in the US all the time. Some folks here seem to think I only think Italian police make such errors.

I do think that in context the Italian police did mis-read Knox's behavior in the police station. I also think at the time Knox was probably clueless her behavior was setting off alarm bells. And I think it only takes a little bit of a culture clash for behavior to be misinterpreted.


Fiona said:
I knew the broken window was in a third room.

So what we are asked to believe is: the perpetrator broke into the house through a window which faced on to a busy road and which he could not reach without a ladder. He was disturbed by the victim's return to the house while he was robbing it. He then decided to rape and kill her, so he went into her room and locked the bedroom door. When it was over he chose to leave through the window (which faced he same way, though I do not know if it was high or not) rather than the door (which was open even though he did not come through it? ); but he took the trouble to open the bedroom door and leave a bloody footprint in the hall. Then he went back into the bedroom and again locked the door and left through the window?

And the next day Ms Knox returned to the house by herself: found the door open and went in ( I have come back to my house and found the door open and the glass panel smashed: I did not go in, though of course I do not have flatmates and that makes a big difference, very likely. I would think it would still make you cautious) She then went straight to her room (fair enough) and changed for a shower. She found blood in the bathroom (having presumably missed the blood in the hall): and even with the open door she went on to have a shower.

To be honest I would not be surprised if the jury discarded most or all of the DNA infighting: and concentrated on this kind of evidence. It is not nothing and this is only part of it

It is true we have to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt: it is not true that we must suspend everything we know about people and render ourselves wholly credulous
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I don't think the broken window proved anything one way or the other but it is my understanding the killer left via the window in Kercher's room. We don't know if he broke in or was let in or just came through an open door.

I see no reason why a killer wouldn't lock the body in the bedroom and leave out the window if that was the only way to leave the bedroom door locked. There was mention of a key being missing. Could be the killer locked the bedroom door with a key and left. We don't have the detail about why one report was a key was missing and one report was you could only lock the door from the inside.

In either case the same would apply to Knox as it would the the killer. Whichever questions the locked door and broken window bring up for you, how does one scenario fit Knox being involved and one scenario not?


As for entering the house, isn't it possible Knox was unaware the window was broken until she went in? And, she wasn't alone. Her boyfriend was with her. I think if I had two roommates and found my apartment door unlocked I would just assume someone was home. I'd probably go in before I found out they weren't.
 
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David Wong said:
...Lesson to all: it is really really hard to get a good thread out of a completely insane and idiotic thread title and opening post. Lots of people intentionally make inflammatory/false headlines to try to get attention to their thread, but you rarely get fruitful discussions that way.
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This is an utterly false accusation and it is unfortunate.

You don't have to agree the cartwheel had any relevance at all to the police in their assessment of Knox's guilt. And if you expected more out of the thread from the title than you got, that is your problem.

How disgustingly childish to make a false accusation of motive because you were disappointed in a thread title.
 
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skeptigirl said:
I don't know for certain the Big Bang occurred either but I can draw a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence.
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Please don't compare the scientific evidence for the Big Bang to your opinion that Knox isn't guilty or that cartwheels in police stations have some kind of "cultural significance".....it's pathetic.

skeptigirl said:
Most of that evidence listed in your source has been addressed in multiple sources here in the thread. For example, regarding the bulk of the 'inconsistencies' and the confessions and accusations some other innocent person did it, all of that was during some 30 hour police interrogation. If the Innocence project has data that 25% of their DNA evidence exonerated convictions involved false confessions, such evidence in this case was very unconvincing.
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The circumstantial evidence plus the behavior of Knox (and others) shortly after the murder would certainly be enough for me to give a "guilty" verdict. I haven't heard any other narratives with better evidence, circumstantial or otherwise.

skeptigirl said:
The supposed motive Knox and her boyfriend had was pretty ludicrous. It began as a supposed Satanic Rite and changed over time to a supposed sex orgy/revenge killing. Sorry, just as ludicrous.
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No one cares if YOU think a killers motive are ludicrous. This might come as a shock, but murder doesn't have to have some logical motive that "makes sense". Some people are freaking nutcases and are psycho....and they kill people.

If you honestly think that this girl is completely innocent then all I can say is that seems WAY more unlikely than her being involved based on her behavior.
 
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skeptigirl said:
For the record, I have now addressed the cartwheel issue in at least 10 different posts including the OP
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Yet you have shown no precedent to equate the individual arguments of bias.

Being American=bias yes

Odd behaviour=bias yes

Police in America seeing more odd behaviour than Italian police=huh? did I get that right?

Odd behaviour when nervous (or more specifically, cartwheels)=exclusive to Americans?

Maybe we are not following you, or is this what you are actually saying?
 
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