Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

[Darth Rotor]

(I also wonder what kind of bigotry this is supposed to be. White Italians being bigoted against white Americans? Or what?)

Newflash for PJ: cross nationality bigotry has been reported in the wild. It is possible for an Italian to just not like Americans, this "white" thing be damned.

DR

 

[Cicero]

Friday's 20/20 interview with Knox's father and sister Ashley did not help Amanda's cause. The sister declared that there is no way Amanda will spend 26 years in an Italian prison regardless of what the court and jury have ruled is the sort of haughty comment that probably drives the Italians (and Meredith Kercher's parents) crazy.

 

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Might be a bad example. The Ramseys did exhibit behaviors that were indicative of guilty persons. I don't think one can say there are no such things as telling behaviors, or chalk it up to individual differences in reaction to a tragedy.

I don't want to derail this into a thread about the Ramseys, but I disagree (unless you know of some specific "suspicious" behaviors. Ultimately, they were ruled out as suspects and given an apology). My point isn't that people can't act suspiciously. For example, if someone finds out their daughter was murdered, then hops a plane to Mexico and refuses to come back... that is suspicious. But small emotions or reactions (crying or not crying. Doing cartwheels or not)... those you can chalk up to individual reactions.

It's just my opinion that the cartwheel(s) would be one of many things that might be interpreted differently across two cultures than within a culture. I was not trying to imply it was the only behavior the Italian police might have misinterpreted, or that without context it looks like a guilty behavior in and of itself.

Yeah I understand, I just don't see that as a cultural issue, for reasons others have pointed out. I don't think that it would be considered "normal" here either. I see it much more as a poor attempt at psychoanalysis.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's the most interesting synonym for "falsehood" I've seen in a while.

So the fact the Cartwheels made worldwide headlines had no significance?

Amanda Knox did cartwheels and splits at police station after Meredith Kercher murder

A police officer who investigated the murder said Miss Knox, 21, and her Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, 24, behaved "inappropriately" as they were waiting to be questioned a few days after the killing in the university town of Perugia, Umbria.

Domenico Giacinto Profazio, the former head of the city's Flying Squad, said other officers had told him that the American undergraduate did cartwheels and the splits in the police station in which she was waiting to be questioned. ...

...The couple had a "strange attitude", Detective Profazio said, adding that Miss Knox sat on her boyfriend's lap. "I told them it was not appropriate," he told the court.

Police: Coed Slay Suspect Knox Did Cartwheels After Murder

Italian investigators testified Friday in the murder trial of an American student and her former boyfriend, with one saying the American turned cartwheels in the police station after the killing.

Cops Cite Amanda Knox's 'Strange Attitude' After Roomie's Murder

Police told an Italian court today that Amanda Knox had a "strange attitude" after discovering that her roommate had been murdered, doing a cartwheel in the police station, sitting on her boyfriend's lap, making faces at him and kissing him.

Meredith Kercher murder trial: Court hears how Arrested Amanda Knox did cartwheel in cell

As Knox's trial in Perugia resumed, police officer Giacinto Profazio told of her bizarre behaviour after her arrest.

Mr Profazio said: "I heard on the night Knox and Sollecito were arrested she was in a room at the station sitting on his knee. I was told that she did the splits and a cartwheel in one of the rooms then later after being questioned all night she burst into tears." Dressed in tight denim jeans and a purple top, Knox appeared more sombre than usual yesterday.

Knox did 'splits after Meredith murder'

Ms Napoleone said: "I saw Amanda doing the splits and a cartwheel.

"She and Sollecito had a bizarre attitude throughout. They were laughing, kissing and pulling faces at each other.

"They were very indifferent to the situation. I found it disturbing considering the body of a young girl had been found in terrible circumstances."

The court heard Knox did her bizarre gymnastics routine three days after Meredith's body had been found.

SG, imagine this title: Amanda Knox guilty, due to cultural bias.
States your position clearly, even if you are or aren't right about it. Nothing misleading about that, is there?

Kind of boring.

Yes, Scrut has been giving you the business, but max seems to have confused who was claiming what, and also missed the sarcasm in Scrut's posts.

Maxpower correctly observed Scrut's posts while you are defending his gratuitous insults.

All this bickering aside, I'm glad you started the thread as I'd lost track of Foxy Knoxy's case. Also, Philip offered some worthwhile insights.

DR

Part of you knows I am an intelligent reasonable person and the other part of you can't quite admit it. As for the bickering, I'm not too interested other than clarifying the facts as they pertain to the thread.

 

[jimtron]

FWIW, here's a NYT oped piece.

In closing arguments, Knox was described as a “Luciferina” and “a dirty-minded she-devil.” Preposterous, made-up sexual motives were ascribed to her. One prosecutor speculated before the jury what Knox may have said to Meredith Kercher before, he claimed, forcing an orgy that resulted in her death:
“You are always behaving like a little saint. Now we will show you. Now we will make you have sex.”
Nobody alleges that Knox said this to Kercher. But prosecutors asked the jury to imagine her saying such a thing.
What century is this? Didn’t Joan of Arc, the Inquisition and our own American Salem witch trials teach civilized nations a thing or two about contrived sexual hysteria with a devil twist?

there is no physical evidence placing Amanda Knox at the blood-splattered crime scene, the room where the killing took place. Zero. But there is abundant evidence linking a drifter named Rudy Guede to the scene — blood, DNA, prints and his own admission. Little wonder he fled to Germany just after the killing, while Knox went to the police voluntarily, without an attorney. Little wonder that he was found guilty, last year, of sexual assault and conspiracy to kill Kercher. He’s serving a 30-year sentence and appealing the case.
There is no motive for Knox and Sollecito; they have no criminal record, no history of violent group sexual encounters. E-mails show Knox and her roommate got along fine, except for the typical college-student disputes over bathroom and household chores.
The one bit of physical evidence from the scene that ties Sollecito — not Knox — to the crime is a bra clasp from Kercher. Prosecutors claim they found some of his DNA on this. But it was not “discovered” until 46 days after the murder, making it subject to contamination and manipulation.

 

[Agatha]

I heard that there was no physical evidence linking her. How can someone do this crime without leaving any physical evidence? Magic?

Something fishy is going on here. I don't know if it is anti-americanism or what.

There appears to have been some physical evidence, disputed by the defence (as one would expect) but nonetheless there was some presented in the trial. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8394110.stm This references computer records, DNA evidence and footprints.

I am still unclear on how cartwheels can be a cultural issue.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't want to derail this into a thread about the Ramseys, but I disagree (unless you know of some specific "suspicious" behaviors. Ultimately, they were ruled out as suspects and given an apology). My point isn't that people can't act suspiciously. For example, if someone finds out their daughter was murdered, then hops a plane to Mexico and refuses to come back... that is suspicious. But small emotions or reactions (crying or not crying. Doing cartwheels or not)... those you can chalk up to individual reactions.



Yeah I understand, I just don't see that as a cultural issue, for reasons others have pointed out. I don't think that it would be considered "normal" here either. I see it much more as a poor attempt at psychoanalysis.

There are legitimate cues in a person's behavior that provide evidence in some criminal cases. There are incompetent assessments of those cues just as there are cross cultural influences on interpreting those behavioral cues.

The police in this case made quite a deal out of Knox's behavior implicating her guilt. I would put both incompetence in assessing behavioral cues to guilt AND cultural influences on inaccurately assessing those behavioral cues as having an impact on this case.

A young girl acting all kissy with a boyfriend and dressed in shorts was viewed by the Italian police as inappropriate. I'm not sure that many cops here would have thought the behavior suspicious even if they had scolded the couple to stop their displays of affection or told Knox to sit down and quit doing cartwheels in their police station.

 

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

ls that I have not seen in the other articles I've read. For example, it has been suggested that Amanda's oddly inappropriate behavior was caused by the long interrogation and conditions in the police station. But what explains her behavior here?

So they went shopping, acted like a boyfriend and girlfriend, and talked about having sex? It's not particularly tasteful, but I'm not sure it is proof of anything.

What stuck out about the excerpt you posted was this:

A few days later, police retrieved the tape and handed it over to Perugia’s deceptively mild prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini, whose position is roughly equivalent to that of a U.S. district attorney. Within days, the tape was released to the rest of the world. On television and Web sites everywhere, the couple’s passion over the thong underwear was played and replayed.

So the tape is turned over to the prosecutor, and a couple of days later, it is released all over the place. Quite a leak. Talk about poisoning the well.

 

[plumjam]

Newflash for PJ: cross nationality bigotry has been reported in the wild. It is possible for an Italian to just not like Americans, this "white" thing be damned.

DR

I know. But I'm interested to know what Skeptigirl means by it. And what leads her to believe that the jury were exhibiting that kind of bigotry.

 

[Fiona]

A young girl acting all kissy with a boyfriend and dressed in shorts was viewed by the Italian police as inappropriate. I'm not sure that many cops here would have thought the behavior suspicious even if they had scolded the couple to stop their displays of affection or told Knox to sit down and quit doing cartwheels in their police station.

You don't think the police would have found it odd? Ok then perhaps you are right and there is a cultural problem in play. I can safely say that such behaviour from anyone in the investigation of the murder of someone they knew, and indeed shared a home with, would cause surprise here.

It says nothing as to her guilt: but to my way of thinking it is very peculiar behaviour. It is also very disrespectful, and the police do tend not to like that, in my experience. This was not a wee child.

Has anyone explained why the victim's bedroom door was locked btw? That has been puzzling me a bit

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There appears to have been some physical evidence, disputed by the defence (as one would expect) but nonetheless there was some presented in the trial. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8394110.stm This references computer records, DNA evidence and footprints.

I am still unclear on how cartwheels can be a cultural issue.

The only physical evidence in your link has been discussed here.

They took a knife that had Knox's fingerprints out of her boyfriend's house and claimed it was the murder weapon despite the fact the forensics did not agree. There was a trace of Kercher's DNA and or blood on the tip, also not consistent with the crime scene and which was consistent with contamination of the evidence. There was a trace of the boyfriend's DNA on Kercher's bra clasp. Maybe he had an affair with her, maybe it got there as the bra lay around the apartment he was in for weeks, maybe it was contamination.

Neither of these two pieces of physical evidence should be enough to convict anyone of a murder.

 

[Agatha]

As I said, I wasn't in court so I don't have access to all the evidence. I don't know if that was all the evidence presented, and I suspect that you don't know for certain either.

I found this on digitalspy:

General and circumstantial evidence:

- Alibis changed several times.
- Inconsistencies in alibis, which still remain.
- Alibis contradicted by 3 independent witnesses, and by analysis of computer hard drive.
- Witness saw them both outside cottage with knives that night.
- Cell phones switched off early in evening, contrary to normal habits.
- Break-in was faked, nobody but Knox and Sollecito had a motive.
- Washing machine was run on morning after murder, and cleanup attempted long after Guede had fled.
- Victim's injuries point to more than one attacker, as do footprints and witness hearing running feet.
- Highly improbable story of Knox showering in house on morning after murder, unworried by broken window, open door, blood stains, unflushed toilet.
- Lie by Sollecito about phone call from father that evening.
- Lie by Sollecito about Meredith being pricked with knife while cooking.
- Lie about what time they called the Carabanieri.
- Knox had knowledge about manner of victim's death even before the police knew.
- False accusation by Knox against Patrick Luamba. Knox told mother shortly afterwards that Luamba was innocent, but neither made any attempt to tell police or lawyers.
- Knox may have been on bad terms with victim.

Forensic evidence:

- Knife with victim's DNA in Sollecito's apartment.
- Sollectio's DNA on victims bra, possibly Knox's DNA on victim's bra.
- Knox's blood mixed with victim's blood: in bathroom (3 places), hallway, room with faked break-in.
- Footprints in blood compatible with Knox in hallway, cleaned after murder, revealed with luminol.
- Footprint in victim's blood compatible with Sollecito on bathmat.
- Print of woman's shoe compatible with Knox's shoe size (not victim's) under victim's body.
- A number of forensic experts called by the defence were unable to dent the prosecution case.

Background (not evidence in itself, but supports evidence):

- Knox: heavy marijuana and alcohol user, casually slept with many men. Fined for wild party in Seattle. Cold, abnormal behavior after murder: "She f-ing bled to death". Laughing, kissing, making faces in police station soon after murder. Day after body discovered Knox shopped for sexy lingerie, kissed in public, talked about wild sex. Cartwheels in police station waiting room. Didn't attend memorial for victim, went for pizza instead.
- Sollecito: arrogant and spoiled, marijuana and cocaine user, collected knives and always carried a knife with him. Collected violent, pornographic comics. Collected besiality porn. Had poster of serial killer on his wall. Wanted 'extreme experiences'.

If all this is some kind of cultural bias by those "bigoted" Italians against Americans, why did they also convict an Italian and a man from Ivory Coast?

 

[Fiona]

How do you know the forensics did not agree? How do you know that the evidence about the knife, whatever its status, is important to the verdict? The forensic expert is reported as saying they had evidence which placed both knox and her boyfriend at the scene. I am not sure what that evidence was. What is mentioned is the mixing of knox's dna with kerchner's blood. I have no idea how to interpret that and it is not explained in any of the links so far posted

We are told that knox took a shower and that there was quite a lot of blood in the bathroom including on the basin taps. Did she not notice that? That can happen I suppose. But I am not convinced I would go ahead and take a shower if there was blood all over it. Not sure what I would do but I am fairly convinced it wouldn't be that.

That is not evidence of guilt either: but you are talking as if you know all the evidence and are certain it does not amount to enough for a conviction: I have not seen the evidence and I do not think you have either.

It is certainly true there was a media circus in Italy which is deeply regrettable: it seems to be true that there was a media circus in the USA for the other side too: and that is equally regrettable. I find it interesting that you present yourself as able to judge the facts from what is reported but presume Italians are not equally competent. I wish I could remember the name for that but the presumption that others are more influenced than one is oneself is not sustainable: and I do not care how much you believe you have studied about this. That kind of bias is of the same order as eyewitness statement bias: ie quite high.

ETA: a much better and more comprehensive post from Agatha renders this one redundant: thanks for that summary, Agatha

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Care to tell us where exactly in America turning cartwheels in a police station after being arrested for murder is considered "normal"?

Or would you prefer to continue humiliating yourself?

 

[Cicero]

The only physical evidence in your link has been discussed here.

They took a knife that had Knox's fingerprints out of her boyfriend's house and claimed it was the murder weapon despite the fact the forensics did not agree. There was a trace of Kercher's DNA and or blood on the tip, also not consistent with the crime scene and which was consistent with contamination of the evidence. There was a trace of the boyfriend's DNA on Kercher's bra clasp. Maybe he had an affair with her, maybe it got there as the bra lay around the apartment he was in for weeks, maybe it was contamination.

Neither of these two pieces of physical evidence should be enough to convict anyone of a murder.

"Either way, the end of this period saw Knox breaking down and claiming she had been in the flat the night of the murder. But she tried to deflect any blame by accusing Patrick Lumumba a Congolese man who owned a bar in Perugia, of being the assassin. Lumumba was jailed for two weeks but subsequently freed and absolved of any connection to the crime when forensic testing incriminated Guede. Knox still faces a civil slander suit as well as criminal charges for falsely accusing Lumumba."

Blaming the bartender was not a particularly bright idea by Amanda. The family's portrayal of Amanda as Mother Teressa didn't resonate with anyone here or abroad. Building her up as "Fort Knox," the impregnable chaste girl, was laughable.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...d-callous-the-jury-believed-them-1834684.html

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You don't think the police would have found it odd? Ok then perhaps you are right and there is a cultural problem in play. I can safely say that such behaviour from anyone in the investigation of the murder of someone they knew, and indeed shared a home with, would cause surprise here.

It says nothing as to her guilt: but to my way of thinking it is very peculiar behaviour. It is also very disrespectful, and the police do tend not to like that, in my experience. This was not a wee child.

I think that kind of clueless behavior in a police station 3 days after the fact while they were waiting (I presume) not while they were being questioned would be pretty common among the youth in this country.

Has anyone explained why the victim's bedroom door was locked btw? That has been puzzling me a bit

This is from a 2007 news story: Meredith Kercher ‘killed after refusing orgy’

The door to her bedroom in the cottage where her body was found was locked from the inside. The killer left by a window. Neither the key nor the murder weapon has been found.

And this: Diary of murdered student could hold clues to her killer, police say

Mr Sollecito, a computer-science student, had told a British Sunday newspaper last weekend that he and Ms Knox had been horrified to see Ms Kercher’s body after police broke down her door. He said that he and Ms Knox had reported an apparent burglary and had been concerned to find Ms Kercher’s door locked from the inside. “It was hard to tell it was Meredith at first but Amanda started crying and screaming. I dragged her away because I didn’t want her to see it, it was so horrible,” he said.

The broken window according the the BBC news report Agatha posted was in a third room.

 

[gtc]

So the fact the Cartwheels made worldwide headlines had no significance?

Amanda Knox did cartwheels and splits at police station after Meredith Kercher murder
Police: Coed Slay Suspect Knox Did Cartwheels After Murder
Cops Cite Amanda Knox's 'Strange Attitude' After Roomie's Murder
Meredith Kercher murder trial: Court hears how Arrested Amanda Knox did cartwheel in cell
Knox did 'splits after Meredith murder'

Which just shows that her behaviour was viewed as odd enough to mention by media outlets 'worldwide'.

 

[Tailgater]

SG, There is no place in the world that doing cartwheels after being accused of murder is somehow "cultural".

Addressing that and moving on would do wonders for this thread.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Which just shows that her behaviour was viewed as odd enough to mention by media outlets 'worldwide'.

Don't you get it? Those are all cultural misunderstandings!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

As I said, I wasn't in court so I don't have access to all the evidence. I don't know if that was all the evidence presented, and I suspect that you don't know for certain either.

I don't know for certain the Big Bang occurred either but I can draw a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence.

I found this on digitalspy:

If all this is some kind of cultural bias by those "bigoted" Italians against Americans, why did they also convict an Italian and a man from Ivory Coast?

Most of that evidence listed in your source has been addressed in multiple sources here in the thread. For example, regarding the the bulk of the 'inconsistencies' and the confessions and accusations some other innocent person did it, all of that was during some 30 hour police interrogation. If the Innocence project has data that 25% of their DNA evidence exonerated convictions involved false confessions, such evidence in this case was very unconvincing.

The supposed motive Knox and her boyfriend had was pretty ludicrous. It began as a supposed Satanic Rite and changed over time to a supposed sex orgy/revenge killing. Sorry, just as ludicrous.

Knox had knowledge of victims death? That and some of the rest of your list are just unsupportable. All you have there is a forum post by a person named Apple_Crumble. He/she didn't post a single source of those declarations of fact.