Hardfire: Szamboti / Chandler / Mackey

[T.A.M.]

I have no problem naming names. I want fire chief Daniel Nigro deposed under oath and asked the types of questions I am bringing up here.

Ok, so you feel Nigro is on it. That is one. Got any more.

TAM

 

[R.Mackey]

I have no problem naming names. I want fire chief Daniel Nigro deposed under oath and asked the types of questions I am bringing up here.

So in your paranoid universe, the FDNY is "in on it."

Got it.

 

[BigAl]

Are you saying the city of New York only had one fireboat?

You really should stop using the ridiculous talking point about a building with the footprint of a football field having a wall which was purportedly bulged having anything to do with it's total collapse.

There were siamese fittings on three sides of WTC 7 and they were never hooked up to. That is something which needs to be questioned and there is a certain fire chief who needs to answer for it.

Total collapse was unnecessary to know that the structure was beyond use. Partial collapse would have done it. The fact that the collapse was total speaks to the intensity and duration of the fire on the south side.

I'm not a fireman but I'll guess that WTC7 was written off before more fireboats were brought on the scene and water wasn't helping the search and rescue effort.

The boat that did show up, the John Harvey, was something of a fluke. It was literally a museum item and parked very close to WTC. The crew were volunteers and they decided to go to WTC without having any task other than picking survivors off the piers, something lots of boats were doing.

http://www.fireboat.org/​

The general use of the one fireboat for water was discontinued early on 9/11 because of the risk of drowning people that they were digging to find.

Source: Nine Months at Ground Zero By Stout, Vitchers, & Gray (highly recommend, especially for anyone in the construction trades.)

 

[T.A.M.]

Being involved in dropping WTC 7 doesn't equate to letting 343 of their fellow firefighters be murdered. Nobody died in WTC 7.

So is it your opinion that the WTC7 plot was separate from the WTC1/2 plot? In other words do you feel that Nigro was in on a secret plan to have WTC7 demolished but was totally without knowledge that the WTC1/2 collapses were also orchestrated by the Nefarious Neocons and others?

TAM

 

[BigAl]

Distant hydrants would not have been affected and the city of New York had several fireboats. Firefighters routinely run lines from distances when necessary.

Sorry but the water mains in the area were broken by the tower collapses excuse doesn't hack it.

Tell it to a fireman.

 

[T.A.M.]

Isn't pressure inversely proportional to distance?

TAM

 

[Mangoose]

The force of the explosions at the World Trade Center had ruptured virtually every water main in downtown Manhattan, leaving firefighters with no water, and no way to fight the fires raging in the buildings left standing in World Trade Plaza. Since the Fire Department had only two under-sized fireboats, and its fire engines were worthless, the Harvey was now an answer to a fireman's prayer.

Pulling up to the seawall in North River, the closest proximity possible to the World Trade Center, the Harvey set up alongside the Fire Department's other two fireboats to begin her work. Fire hoses were quickly run from the Harvey to the World Trade Center, and the firefighters were able to put down the remaining fires, saving everything but World Trade Center 7, which collapsed later that day.

The Harvey worked non-stop until Friday night, September 14, when water service to the City's fire hydrants was restored.


http://everything2.com/title/The+John+J.+Harvey%253A+Fireboat+Hero+of+9%252F11


There were other buildings on fire that could be saved, as well as the WTC site itself where scores of their brethren were trapped.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

i'm beginning to think that his argument is changing from one of actual complicity to one of criminal negligence.

 

[BigAl]

Isn't pressure inversely proportional to distance?

TAM

Good point, and using pumped water to fight fire on the ground and using the pumper to get water hundreds of yards inland and up 20s of floors WTC7 are two entirely different things. Besides, one hose can help keep a search & rescue worker cool but countless hoses going full blast would be needed to fight the fully involved fires on multiple floors in WTC7.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

So is it your opinion that the WTC7 plot was separate from the WTC1/2 plot? In other words do you feel that Nigro was in on a secret plan to have WTC7 demolished but was totally without knowledge that the WTC1/2 collapses were also orchestrated by the Nefarious Neocons and others?

TAM

The non-detail attempts by others here to say the fireboats were small or that the pressure would not be great enough to run hoses from a distance are a joke.

Right now there are serious questions which have not been answered and Nigro is a known person who was involved in deciding not to fight the fires in WTC 7. It could be that Nigro was manipulated himself. He needs to answer these questions and that could lead to other issues.

 

[R.Mackey]

The non-detail attempts by others here to say the fireboats were small or that the pressure would not be great enough to run hoses from a distance are a joke.

Appeal to ignorance.

Right now there are serious questions which have not been answered and Nigro is a known person who was involved in deciding not to fight the fires in WTC 7. It could be that Nigro was manipulated himself. He needs to answer these questions and that could lead to other issues.

Textbook case of Inflation. Know how I know you're a conspiracy theorist?

 

[TruthersLie]

All that had to be done was to prevent the fires in WTC 7 from being fought, so they could be used as a cover for it's demolition.

One would not need to go in the building to fight the fires either. The fireboats only a few hundred yards away could have been used with the siamese fittings on the outside of WTC 7 to supply the sprinkler systems. Hoses from distant fire hydrants could have also been run. There were several siamese fittings on the outside of WTC 7 and they were never hooked up to at any time, due to the orders of a certain fire chief. So maybe it wouldn't even be a handful but as little as one person with authority from the FDNY that would need to be involved.

There are quotes of many firefighters who were befuddled that they weren't being allowed to fight the fires in WTC 7.

Curiosly, by about 12:30 PM on 911 the Giulliani administration was saying WTC 7 was lost, even though there is no photographic evidence of fires in WTC 7 until 12:15 PM. Think about that.

Curiously... you again went back and changed your original post where you basically say some of the firefighters MURDERED their own...and then you change it after being called on it.

What a moral coward.

so now you change and equivocate... GREAT, please give us the NAME of this ONE person who profited from murdering 343 of his fellows?

 

[Myriad]

He needs to answer these questions and that could lead to other issues.

He does not need to answer any such questions, unless someone with the legal authority to demand answers from a Fire Chief poses them.

The Truth Movement and its supporters, individually and collectively, have failed to cause any such thing to happen.

Therefore, no, he absolutely does not need to answer your questions.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Edx]

The non-detail attempts by others here to say the fireboats were small or that the pressure would not be great enough to run hoses from a distance are a joke.

Right now there are serious questions which have not been answered and Nigro is a known person who was involved in deciding not to fight the fires in WTC 7. It could be that Nigro was manipulated himself. He needs to answer these questions and that could lead to other issues.

Uh lots of firefighters commented on not fighting the fires and none of them had a dissenting opinion about fighting the fires.

As usual you guys say the firefighters are in on it, what a lovelly lot you are.

 

[TruthersLie]

Being involved in dropping WTC 7 doesn't equate to letting 343 of their fellow firefighters be murdered. Nobody died in WTC 7.

Follow the line of reasoning tony.

Especially since you say there were explosives in the tower.

So the fire chief and firemen were involved in allowing wtc7 to collapse because they had preknowledge.

what they only had preknowledge of wtc7, but didn't know about the towers? REally?

 

[Edx]

And why would they not admit that? They would have had to lie in all their interviews.

 

[BigAl]

The non-detail attempts by others here to say the fireboats were small or that the pressure would not be great enough to run hoses from a distance are a joke.

The idea that a fireboat can pump water hundreds of yards inland and up 10s of floors needs some defense.

The Siamese connectors are there to fight the fires the construction codes planned for. That would fire limited to one floor and controlled by sprinklers to give the firemen enough time to show up and pressurize the risers.

Even if the pumpers existed, there is no way that enough water could be pumped through the risers to fight the fires on multiple floors in WTC7.

 

[Edx]

Dont worry Tony, just another one of your lying firefighters!

 

[bardamu]

In case anyone wonders why I'm not fussing over the continuing derails (viz. no-planers deigning to lecture others on the scientific method...), it's not just because it represents a record seventh time a split is needed and I've given up.

Rather, I think at this point the derail is itself instructive.

It's hard to understand how my comments on your slides for the Hardfire debate could qualify as a derail. It was you who brought up no planes, the FDNY and Apollo 11. The reason you did that was to try to discredit me before addressing my points. You have a record of debating in that manner. In fact, that's exactly how you began the Hardfire debate, with your "irreducible delusion" smear. It's a classic case of accusing your opponent of the very thing you're guilty of yourself. It followed Ron's rant against David Ray Griffin, when he tried to insinuate that Tony was in league with "a man who traffics in dishonesty". These two snidey maneouvres combined took up the first 6 minutes of the debate.

The Hardfire viewers who witnessed your apparent show of humility when you said "I dont have the same kind of disgust for members of the truth movement that Ron probably does", might be surprised to hear you refer to a group of professional engineers as "the AE911T morons" whose "incompetence is so phenomenal that they are not even recognizable as a parody of a valid authority."

And by the way, a jury doesn't need to know who the real murderer is before they can decide there's reasonable doubt that the accused is not guilty. It's not necessary for the defence to provide an alternative theory.

 

[Myriad]

The force of the explosions at the World Trade Center had ruptured virtually every water main in downtown Manhattan, leaving firefighters with no water, and no way to fight the fires raging in the buildings left standing in World Trade Plaza. Since the Fire Department had only two under-sized fireboats, and its fire engines were worthless, the Harvey was now an answer to a fireman's prayer.

Pulling up to the seawall in North River, the closest proximity possible to the World Trade Center, the Harvey set up alongside the Fire Department's other two fireboats to begin her work. Fire hoses were quickly run from the Harvey to the World Trade Center, and the firefighters were able to put down the remaining fires, saving everything but World Trade Center 7, which collapsed later that day.

The Harvey worked non-stop until Friday night, September 14, when water service to the City's fire hydrants was restored.


http://everything2.com/title/The+John+J.+Harvey%253A+Fireboat+Hero+of+9%252F11


There were other buildings on fire that could be saved, as well as the WTC site itself where scores of their brethren were trapped.

Well, that completely settles it. Evidence that the Fire Department DID run hoses and pump water from the river, to the limit of its capacity and beyond (to the point of pressing a literal museum piece into service). This had to have required a major effort -- consider, for example, the difficulty of routing the hoses without further restricting the already compromised routes available to emergency vehicles.

With enough time, equipment, and personnel, any amount of water can be pumped anywhere. In the real world, time and equipment and personnel are always limited. Anyone in a position for Chief Nigro to have to answer to would understand that very well.

Respectfully,
Myriad