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JFK assassination debate

I watched a History Channel special last year on the Kennedy assassination, which I am sure has been discussed here. They recreated the conditions using the same type rifle, optics, and ammunition(from the same lot), and it appeared that they were able to get the same results. That is, that they proved that Oswald, shooting from the window, could have made all three shots in the time that he had and done the same damage.

I recently brought this up to a CT'er and was told that the producers of that show have admitted to fudging the results. Has anybody else heard of this? If there is a thread, can you point me to it please.

Thanks
 
Lenbrazil said:
IIRC a few people have tried to recreate the shooting but were unable to, factors to consider are the downward angle,the cramped position LHO would have been in in the snipers nest,a target moving away and L to R at 13 mph
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Who were these people? At what angle was the limo moving away from the shooter? According to witness testimony, it did slow down briefly during the shooting. So how much more difficult did target motion make the shot? According to my calculations, the shooter only had to aim at the right edge of the head to get a center shot.

Since the range was so short, the downward angle was meaningless to a marksman. A cramped shooting position means little as long as it is a stable one and does not have to be held for a long time.

Give me your numbers to work with and I will tell you how much harder is was to make the shot on the moving target. :)

Ranb
 
The limo maintained a constant speed thru the shooting event.
Rotoscoping the Zapruder film using Mary Moorman's position as a constant reference, this first plot emerges. Zapruder frames 289 to 311
The second shows the constant speed up to frame 315, from frame 307.
 

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Thanks. I read from a reliable source (Posner I think) that the driver let off on the gas a bit after the first shot then sped off after the third shot.

Ranb
 
Gerry Posner began his investigation with the idea of proving the conspiracy, but ended by finding there was none.
There's a couple problems with his scenarios but mostly it's correct.
I have a thank-you note from him for defending his book against the attacks by the CTwits on JFK Research and Compuserve, way back when.
 
Ever notice the fail in the "Three shots" issue?

Load, aim, fire, load, aim, fire, load, aim, fire.

Wrong. He already had a round chambered and had taken aim. So . . .

Fire, load, aim, fire, load, aim, fire.

The time starts when he pulled the trigger on the first round.

And it's not hard, I reproduced the sequence when I was seventeen, in 1968.
 
Gawdzilla said:
Ever notice the fail in the "Three shots" issue?

Load, aim, fire, load, aim, fire, load, aim, fire.

Wrong. He already had a round chambered and had taken aim. So . . .

Fire, load, aim, fire, load, aim, fire.

The time starts when he pulled the trigger on the first round.

And it's not hard, I reproduced the sequence when I was seventeen, in 1968.
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This is taken into account

Moreon the attempts torecreatethe shooting:

Some lone-gunman theorists will assert that Oswald's alleged shooting performance was duplicated by several expert marksmen in the CBS rifle test. However, the CBS test did not simulate all of the factors under which Oswald allegedly fired. Furthermore, the four riflemen who managed to score at least two hits out of three shots in less than six seconds failed to do so on their first attempts, yet Oswald would have had ONLY one attempt. And, needless to say, all of these men were experienced, expert riflemen. Seven of the eleven CBS shooters failed to score at least two hits on ANY of their attempts. The best shot in the group, Howard Donahue, took THREE attempts to score at least two hits out of three shots in under six seconds. In addition, the CBS shooters did not use the alleged murder weapon, with its difficult bolt and odd trigger--they used a different Carcano.

The impossibility of Oswald's alleged shooting feat was what led former Marine sniper Craig Roberts to reject the lone-gunman theory. Roberts explains as he recounts the first time he visited the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository:

I turned my attention to the window in the southeast corner--the infamous Sniper's Nest. . . . I immediately felt like I had been hit with a sledge hammer. The word that came to mind at what I saw as I looked down through the window to Elm Street and the kill zone was: IMPOSSIBLE!

I knew instantly that Oswald could not have done it. . . . The reason I knew that Oswald could not have done it, was that *I* could not have done it. (KILL ZONE: A SNIPER LOOKS AT DEALEY PLAZA, p. 5) ​

Retired Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock is likewise skeptical of Oswald's alleged shooting feat. Hathcock is a former senior instructor at the U. S. Marine Corps Sniper Instruction School at Quantico, Virginia. He has been described as the most famous American military sniper in history. In Vietnam he was credited with 93 confirmed kills. He now conducts police SWAT team sniper schools across the country. Craig Roberts asked Hathcock about the marksmanship feat attributed to Oswald by the Warren Commission. Hathcock answered that he did not believe Oswald could have done what the Commission said he did. Added Hathcock,

Let me tell you what we did at Quantico. We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. (KILL ZONE, pp. 89-90)​
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http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_critics/griffith/oswald_poor_shot.html

I'm not 100% sold on assassination CT but think a conspiracy is a more likely explanation than LHO as the LN.This is one of the few CT's I consider likely.

The limo maintained a constant speed thru the shooting event.
Rotoscoping the Zapruder film using Mary Moorman's position as a constant reference, this first plot emerges. Zapruder frames 289 to 311
The second shows the constant speed up to frame 315, from frame 307.
Click to expand...

Then you did something wrong even McAdams and Posner acknowledge the car slowed. I don't think this is indicative of a conspiracy, William Greer, the driver, was confused and slightly let his foot off the accelerator a bit for a few seconds.
 
Did Craig Roberts give a reason for why the shot was impossible?

The distance was short, the angle wasn't extreme and the vehicle was moving slowly.
 
Kestrel said:
Did Craig Roberts give a reason for why the shot was impossible?

The distance was short, the angle wasn't extreme and the vehicle was moving slowly.
Click to expand...

Penn Gillette got three rounds off under the allotted time, so that can't be it. A "drop shot" is easier than an uphill shot, so that can't be it. The speed isn't an issue, so that can't be it.

That only leave the Reptilians.
 
One of the reviews here; http://www.amazon.com/Kill-Zone-Sni...ts=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending claims the book author said "that Oswald's rifle could be fired no faster than every three seconds." and "The author also states that all the shots were fired in rapid succession in just less than six seconds."

This is very basic stuff. Kind of like calling the bullet pristine when it actually was nothing of the sort. I own a Carcano rilfe just like LHO's. It has a slick bolt. If a person can not operate a Cancano bolt in way less than three seconds, then they have no business calling themselves an expert at all.

If the author really made this 3 second claim, then I really have a hard time believeing anything else he has to say. I might have to buy the book and read it for myself before I comment further on it.

Ranb
 
Ranb said:
One of the reviews here; http://www.amazon.com/Kill-Zone-Sni...ts=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending claims the book author said "that Oswald's rifle could be fired no faster than every three seconds." and "The author also states that all the shots were fired in rapid succession in just less than six seconds."

This is very basic stuff. Kind of like calling the bullet pristine when it actually was nothing of the sort. I own a Carcano rilfe just like LHO's. It has a slick bolt. If a person can not operate a Cancano bolt in way less than three seconds, then they have no business calling themselves an expert at all.

If the author really made this 3 second claim, then I really have a hard time believeing anything else he has to say. I might have to buy the book and read it for myself before I comment further on it.

Ranb
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I was stationed in Italy (NAF Sigonella, Sicily) for three years. The good people there were highly miffed that Americans were slamming their rifle. They demonstrated to me that it was indeed a good piece. And standing next to an angrey Sicilian with a gun, I loudly and repeatedly agreed.
 
The Carcano I have is a real piece of crap due to neglect. Nothing even a real Italian patriot would be proud of. But I would have no problem hitting a large slowing moving target at short range with it. Those that claim to be expert marksmen are degrading themselves when they say they can not do it.

Ranb
 
Can you really trust the opinions (and marksmanship) of people who go into the situation already believing that Oswald's shots were "impossible"? How can you (or they) be sure that their preconceptions aren't preventing them from clearly telling the difference between what is and isn't possible? Could such preconceptions (consciously or unconsciously) affect their aim and reaction time?
 
What do you think of

1. Eyewitness accounts of a man with glasses at the sixth floor
2. Eyewitness accounts of Oswald escaping in a in a station wagon driven by a dark- complexioned man
 
Simplicissimus said:
What do you think of

1. Eyewitness accounts of a man with glasses at the sixth floor
2. Eyewitness accounts of Oswald escaping in a in a station wagon driven by a dark- complexioned man
Click to expand...
.
These are common legends brought up by those with little ability to be truthful.
 
Simplicissimus said:
What do you think of

1. Eyewitness accounts of a man with glasses at the sixth floor
2. Eyewitness accounts of Oswald escaping in a in a station wagon driven by a dark- complexioned man
Click to expand...


I don't recall ever hearing about these accounts, so there isn't much I can say about them.

What did this "dark complexioned man" do after picking up Oswald? Drop him off almost immediately afterward, forcing Oswald to walk the rest of the way, thereby running into and killing Tippit and then having to hide in a movie theatre? That's some getaway plan.:rolleyes:

The Simplicissimus simplest answer is usually the correct one...or at least the first one you should consider. I'll take the JFK CTists a little more seriously when more than two of them can agree on the same narrative.
 
Simplicissimus said:
What do you think of

1. Eyewitness accounts of a man with glasses at the sixth floor
2. Eyewitness accounts of Oswald escaping in a in a station wagon driven by a dark- complexioned man
Click to expand...

Gee, the building was occupied, wasn't it? And, if I may ask, who was paying attention to the School Book Depository with JFK motoring by?
 
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