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Split Thread Diesel tanks role in the destruction of WTC7

bardamu

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Mar 24, 2009
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I state two in my post and you still have to ask? For one, the role, or rather the lack thereof, of diesel fuel in the fires. And two, the special role the long truss spans held in the failures.

I'm sure others can elaborate on this, but those are two I'm aware of.

But why did these two facts only become known in 2008?


Much obliged. Great site. Some more disinfo thrown in too I notice. Did you hear the commentator mention the plane circling the building ?

There was a blob heading towards the towers, but it's not clear whether that was shown live or not. Just before the impact they switch cameras to a shot that just catches the edge of the explosion. In the FOX archives, they appear to have replaced the 'nose-out' footage with a similar shot.


I heard them also commentate that it was a small plane, a DC-9, a 727 and a 747. Which one was right Bill?

None of them was right.


well, it dont work for me..sorry.

and honestly, "In Plain Site"?????

damn man..

I don't think he was asking you to believe what Dave Von Kleist is telling you. It's just a source for the FOX footage.

Posted By: Gaspode
 
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They weren't.

When exactly did the debunkers accept that the diesel tanks played no role in the destruction of WTC7?


Billy.

I can tell you didn't watch the videos I posted... they completely and utterly destroy simonshack billy.

completely and utterly.

What makes it sooooo funny is that Alan Lawson is a truther.

Anthony Lawson doesn't make any sense in that last video you linked to. If the whole layer mask moved to the left, the nose out would have been hidden. He doesn't seem to realize that the nose out happens because the mask stays over the towers but the cgi moves with the camera.
 
They weren't.

Can you remember when Shyam Sunder first made his announcement ? ' Thermal Expansion ' was the culprit he said.

I can still feel the mind-warp that all interested listeners went through at that moment ? lol. Everybody was thinking ' That sounds like normal expansion under heat.......but that can't be what it means surely ' Do you remember how utterly weird that moment was ? Or were you unsurprised ?
 
Can you remember when Shyam Sunder first made his announcement ? ' Thermal Expansion ' was the culprit he said.

I can still feel the mind-warp that all interested listeners went through at that moment ? lol. Everybody was thinking ' That sounds like normal expansion under heat.......but that can't be what it means surely ' Do you remember how utterly weird that moment was ? Or were you unsurprised ?

For some extremely small value of "everybody".
 
Your line of questioning is getting silly. Will you get to the point, please?

When exactly did the debunkers accept that the diesel tanks played no role in the destruction of WTC7?

There is no "When exactly" about it. The earliest indications we had about diesel not playing a role came as early as May 2002, when the Bechtel SH&E group indicated that large amounts of the stored diesel were recovered. Other pieces of knowledge slowly accrued; there were questions about the amount of energy that would be available from diesel fuel (I forget, everyone, was that from Frank Greening, or someone else? It's too damn hard to remember all these details), as well as where within the building it could have possibly exerted it's influence had it truly been a factor. There were people who pointed out that the office contents fuel load is already a big load. Etc. There is no one moment, which was the point of my answer above.

Knowledge accretion does not always have to have a single "aha!" moment. It can be built up slowly over time as information is discovered and critically evaluated in the overall context of whatever event or issue is being studied.
 
When exactly did the debunkers accept that the diesel tanks played no role in the destruction of WTC7?

That would be right after the draft report of WTC7 came out from NIST. Prior to that, it was just speculation.

There was evidence from bechtel (I think) about how they recoverd diesel fuel in 2003ish... but it wasn't fully ruled out until NIST ruled it out.

Speculation which would show how the fires burned, and could have burned enough to cause the building to collapse.

Once NIST brought out the amount of diesel fuel recovered and categorically stated it did not burn, that suppostion/speculation ended. It is how science works...

Anthony Lawson doesn't make any sense in that last video you linked to. If the whole layer mask moved to the left, the nose out would have been hidden. He doesn't seem to realize that the nose out happens because the mask stays over the towers but the cgi moves with the camera.

Thank you for showing you are a no planer.

Nose in, engine out the other side. Simon shack bs does not match up or even come close.
 
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There is no "When exactly" about it. The earliest indications we had about diesel not playing a role came as early as May 2002, when the Bechtel SH&E group indicated that large amounts of the stored diesel were recovered. Other pieces of knowledge slowly accrued; there were questions about the amount of energy that would be available from diesel fuel (I forget, everyone, was that from Frank Greening, or someone else? It's too damn hard to remember all these details), as well as where within the building it could have possibly exerted it's influence had it truly been a factor. There were people who pointed out that the office contents fuel load is already a big load. Etc. There is no one moment, which was the point of my answer above.

Knowledge accretion does not always have to have a single "aha!" moment. It can be built up slowly over time as information is discovered and critically evaluated in the overall context of whatever event or issue is being studied.


That would be right after the draft report of WTC7 came out from NIST. Prior to that, it was just speculation.

There was evidence from bechtel (I think) about how they recoverd diesel fuel in 2003ish... but it wasn't fully ruled out until NIST ruled it out.

Speculation which would show how the fires burned, and could have burned enough to cause the building to collapse.

Once NIST brought out the amount of diesel fuel recovered and categorically stated it did not burn, that suppostion/speculation ended. It is how science works...


In February 2007 the BBC's Conspiracy Files were still saying the diesel tanks were partially responsible for the "raging inferno".


Nose in, engine out the other side. Simon shack bs does not match up or even come close.

If pictures of the tip of the 'nose in' and pictures of the tip of the 'engine out' were mixed up, would you be able to tell the difference?



NBC. Who else?
 
In February 2007 the BBC's Conspiracy Files were still saying the diesel tanks were partially responsible for the "raging inferno".

So the NIST draft report came out before Feb 2007? Really? It was not completely ruled out until the NIST draft report came out. When was that again?

If pictures of the tip of the 'nose in' and pictures of the tip of the 'engine out' were mixed up, would you be able to tell the difference?

Nice false choice set up...
1. I wouldn't examine any of simon shacks bs videos because he uses completely low resolution video images. Why is that? Oh because in high defintion video (of which there is several images of the jets hitting the second tower).
2. I wouldn't take a single image and say it is different from any other image unless I had both to examine.

Alan Lawson completely destroys this by pointing out how Simon Shack LIES about it and distorts it by fading one image out...

why does simon shack do that? OH because they do not match.

I posted 3 videos which show that simon shack is full of crap. Please go back and watch them.

nose in, engine out.
 
When exactly did the debunkers accept that the diesel tanks played no role in the destruction of WTC7?The Rest was just idiotic, so Triforcharity snipped it.

WTF dude?? You do relize that has been quite some time.


See, this is the difference between truthers, and well, everyone. We believed that the diesel fuel in the building would have contributed to it's collapse. Hell, so did I. But then, the NIST said, Nah, that really didn't do anything, as based on the evidence. (Which were live tests and the fact that only a few thousand gallons were missing, out of the many many thousands that were there)
So, we, being truthfull and honest people, gave that idea the boot.

Truthers, will hold on to ANY cockamammy, assinine idea, for as LONG as they can, just so they can feel important or something.
 
Can you explain what the Consolidated Edison substation was used for under WTC7?

If you think it's relevant to the collapse, please explain.


So the NIST draft report came out before Feb 2007? Really? It was not completely ruled out until the NIST draft report came out. When was that again?

So? So what? What is the significance of this?

Nearly five years after the first indications that the diesel tanks didn't play a role in the collapse, the BBC, after consulting with Popular Mechanics, were still claiming that the diesel was partly responsible for the raging fires. That suggests that the debunkers were not slowly and critically evaluating the information as it was discovered, but simply waiting for the next pronouncement from NIST so they'd know which story to defend.

As it turns out, the diesel tanks theory made more sense than the current one!
 
Nearly five years after the first indications that the diesel tanks didn't play a role in the collapse, the BBC, after consulting with Popular Mechanics, were still claiming that the diesel was partly responsible for the raging fires. That suggests that the debunkers were not slowly and critically evaluating the information as it was discovered, but simply waiting for the next pronouncement from NIST so they'd know which story to defend.

As it turns out, the diesel tanks theory made more sense than the current one!

So, the BBC are "debunkers" now, huh? Interesting worldview.

But that's beside the point. What's truly interesting is why you take the BBC's special on this as being the summary, state, and mouthpiece of critical thinkers mindsets at the time when a more plausible hypothesis is that they're simply taking the initial FEMA reports, as well as many of the initial news and feature sources (including the PopMech writers involved with this subject) which derived from that as being the current state of information. Mistaking old, well publicized yet out-of-date information as being the "state of the art" tends to happen quite often with highly technical issues in the general press; as an example outside of engineering, look at how many stories you can find up until today emphasizing the complexity of passwords in computer security when it's been definitively demonstrated that password length matters more.

But back to building 7 and the diesel fuel: A simple examination of Bechtel's report of recovered diesel by itself would raise doubt about the role it played in the fire. And that was written up in 2002, in the journal Professional Safety.

Anyway, you commit multiple errors of assumption in your post. For one, you posit that the BBC piece sums up the state of thought among 9/11 researchers, and while that specific item might indeed have been what some thought, it was not what all thought, and you are not establishing any reason for anyone to think that the BBC does indeed summarize the consensus. Two, you seem to be stuck on this strange mindset that no one here jumps without NIST's say so; the fact that we've all been exposed to and give credence to both Dr. James Quintiere's critiques as well as Arup's differences over the effectiveness of the fireproofing gives total lie to that claim. We don't know which of them are right or wrong, but we accept Quintiere and Arup on their respective differences may indeed be correct over NIST. And intertwined with this point is the fact that NIST is far from being our only source of information. Again, the initial indication that diesel didn't play a big a role as was first thought came from a professional journal, not NIST. Furthermore, the background sense you give is that NIST is not a reliable source of information, and nothing can be further from the truth. They make transparent why they conclude what they do about their narratives, and nearly all of that information is freely and easily available to anyone with the skill to click on a link. Their conclusions flow from known engineering/construction principles and can be verified by anyone with the skill. You give no reason for why NIST should be distrusted. And beware of the tired, old "government mouthpiece" schtick; the fact remains that their information is well trusted by organizations like the afore mentioned ARUP, as well as the International Code Council, and that is plenty of evidence that non-US organizations find plenty to accept about NIST's work. That, of course, is not proof that they're correct about WTC 7, but what it is proof of is that they have much credibility. You give no reason to doubt that credibiilty.

You'll need to come up with a better argument than what you've presented so far if you really want to make your point about "debunkers" being NIST shills.
 
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