Obama and the Gay Military...

[GreyICE]

And the hits keep on coming.

No effect on Unit Cohesion? But Bill Thompson once saw a guy in a shower!

 

[ponderingturtle]

In all fairness he did. It is because it is still socially acceptable to be homophobic in America, but it is not socially acceptable to be racist.

It is not a good answer, and not one I would consider a valid argument for keeping DADT, but he did answer it.

But he hasn't answered why it was not an equally bad idea for Truman to integrate the armed forces. Interracial marriage was illegal in many states at the time that it is not associated with by most people, like California.

You have to compare racism of the late 40s to homophobia today not racism today.

 

[Bill Thompson]

You don't seem to be able to comprehend. I don't think you are homophobic because you think DADT will stick.



I think you are homophobic for the following reasons among others:

• You argue in favor DADT, using arguments that diminish the experience of being gay and being forced into the closet
• You support DADT because it 'protects' gays from all of those other homophopes, but not you
• you uncritically accept assertions that molestation and confused gender rolls in upbringing can make a child become gay
• You argue in favor of DADT because in stress situations a gay soldier cannot control his sexual urges and may rape one of his squadmates

LOL!! In the military -- I mean the real one and not the one you imagine -- anyone can get in serious trouble for speaking what they have in mind. It is true for all enlisted men. Oh the trauma of being forced in the closet!! If you cannot handle that heat, stay out of the kitchen. You can get seriously burned by telling an officer what you really think. And, no, in the real world, it is not asking too much.

Freedom of speech is not a right of every officer or enlisted person in the United States miliary. I am talking about the real one. I am not talking about the fantasy that you have in mind.

You argue in favor of DADT because in stress situations a gay soldier cannot control his sexual urges and may rape one of his squadmates

How funny! I did not say that. Get real, man.

 

[Bill Thompson]

But he hasn't answered why it was not an equally bad idea for Truman to integrate the armed forces. Interracial marriage was illegal in many states at the time that it is not associated with by most people, like California.

You have to compare racism of the late 40s to homophobia today not racism today.

Yeah, I addressed that.

I said that there are no religions in the United States that preach that blacks should be killed like they preach that homosexuals should be killed and doing so would please God.

 

[Bill Thompson]

You don't know what DADT is about.

You think it is an "ant-gay" policy.

Or that it takes rights away from Gay people.

Several posts have gone into what it is and why it came about. Does reading make your head hurt or something?

 

[Bill Thompson]

It means that if a homosexual has sexual relationships that they need to be in constant fear of being discovered. Just like the straights.

The military is now demanding celibacy of all troops. That will solve the problem of what to do with children durring the deployment of their mother. Dishonnerable discharges for all mothers.

You are a liar. It means that the military is not allowed to ask a servicemen of their sexual orientation and an individual has the right not to tell.

 

[Alt+F4]

I said that there are no religions in the United States that preach that blacks should be killed like they preach that homosexuals should be killed and doing so would please God.

The amount of churches that preach that gays should be murdered is very, very small. Why should United States military policy be dictated by what a hundred or so nuts think?

 

[Bill Thompson]

It was one of your worst arguments here.

And so it is the only one you choose to attack.

And it was the easiest one to misunderstand. Which is what you have done.

Do you believe in magic? Do you think if you break the weakest argument, you change reality like breaking a link in a chain?

 

[Bill Thompson]

The amount of churches that preach that gays should be murdered is very, very small. Why should United States military policy be dictated by what a hundred or so nuts think?

That is a misleading comment. Although only a few preach it, they do believe it or are willing to accept it. There are biblical fundamentalists who could easily just crack open their bible and see the passages that support this sort of murder.

Also, althought they do not preach murder, The Mormons believe that they can "cure" homosexuality and so do the Scientologists. Both are larger than you might think.

And it is about the forth time I have typed this in one way or another.

 

[Sledge]

You don't know what DADT is about.

You think it is an "ant-gay" policy.

Or that it takes rights away from Gay people.

Several posts have gone into what it is and why it came about. Does reading make your head hurt or something?

Bill, respond to what I said. Here it is AGAIN:

Your point is that gay people should not have the same rights in the military as straight people. This will put a lot of gay people off joining the military. You are, therefore, arguing that gay people shouldn't serve in the military by agreeing with a practice that will discriminate against them. Your reasoning for this is that "the United States is a powder keg of Religious Extremism." So you are saying that we should discriminate against gay people so that religious extremists will be more comfortable. Again, why is that?

What are you disagreeing with?

 

[Alt+F4]

Also, althought they do not preach murder, The Mormons believe that they can "cure" homosexuality and so do the Scientologists. Both are larger than you might think.

So what? Military policy should not be dictated by religious beliefs. But if you want to throw religion into, there has been a recent shift among conservative church-goers to repeal DADT.

 

[cwalner]

Bill thank you for proving my point.

I think you are homophobic for the following reasons among others:
You argue in favor DADT, using arguments that diminish the experience of being gay and being forced into the closet
<snip>

your response:

Oh the trauma of being forced in the closet!! If you cannot handle that heat, stay out of the kitchen.

 

[Alt+F4]

The Bible clearly states that eating shellfish is an abomination before God. Maybe the Army should ban clam chowder soup on the chow line. Someone might get offended and start raping the other soldiers, or something like that.

 

[cwalner]

You are a liar. It means that the military is not allowed to ask a servicemen of their sexual orientation and an individual has the right not to tell.

So under DADT, it is a right of gay service members to live in the closet, not an obligation? Then explain why soldiers have been dishonorobly discharged for choosing not to exercise this right so generously granted them by DADT?

ETA: According to Bill, geing gay in the military is just like being charged of a crime. You have the right to remain silent, but anything you say can and will be used against you.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Look into the policies and practices regarding homosexuality among the following formidable groups in the USA and imagine how they would take to having their fellow servicemen openly discuss their sexual orientation. And then tell me if it is out of line for Generals and Admirals to merely tell their service men to keep their sexual orientation private:

The Mormons
The Evangelists
The Southern Baptists
The Scientologist
The Biblical Fundamentalists

You might think, "what better way to force social change than to remove DADT policy! What could possibly go wrong?" Taking such risks is not what the military does.

 

[Bill Thompson]

So under DADT, it is a right of gay service members to live in the closet, not an obligation? Then explain why soldiers have been dishonorobly discharged for choosing not to exercise this right so generously granted them by DADT?

ETA: According to Bill, geing gay in the military is just like being charged of a crime. You have the right to remain silent, but anything you say can and will be used against you.

What the hell are you talking about? The only rights servicemen and servicewomen have in the military are the ones that the military gives them.

 

[Alt+F4]

Look into the policies and practices regarding homosexuality among the following formidable groups in the USA and imagine how they would take to having their fellow servicemen openly discuss their sexual orientation. And then tell me if it is out of line for Generals and Admirals to merely tell their service men to keep their sexual orientation private:

The Mormons
The Evangelists
The Southern Baptists
The Scientologist
The Biblical Fundamentalists

You might think, "what better way to force social change than to remove DADT policy! What could possibly go wrong?" Taking such risks is not what the military does.

You have zero evidence that any of the above religions preach that harm should be done to gays who speak about their homosexuality. A Gallop poll taken in June found that the that majorities of weekly churchgoers (60%), conservatives (58%), and Republicans (58%) now favor repealing DATD.

From a military standpoint repealing DADT has nothing to do with forcing social change and much to do with the fact that we need these people. As General Shalikashvili, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff stated:

I now believe that if gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces. Our military has been stretched thin by our deployments in the Middle East, and we must welcome the service of any American who is willing and able to do the job.

Links:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/120764/Conservatives-Shift-Favor-Openly-Gay-Service-Members.aspx

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/opinion/02shalikashvili.html?_r=1

 

[cwalner]

What the hell are you talking about? The only rights servicemen and servicewomen have in the military are the ones that the military gives them.

I am pointing out the dishonesty of stating that DADT gives gay service members the right not to discuss thier orientation, but are dishonorably discharged if they do discuss it.

If they are not allowed to stay in the military and be openly gay, it is not a right, but an obligation to not talk about thier orientation. An obligation that does not extend to straight servicemen by the way.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yeah, I addressed that.

I said that there are no religions in the United States that preach that blacks should be killed like they preach that homosexuals should be killed and doing so would please God.

And again the point is irrelevant, first because it is not true, and second because you are not referencing the time period that blacks were intergrated into the military.

 

[Ryokan]

Reading Bill Thompson's posts has made me understand that the US military is a bit like a Franz Kafka novel.