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Moderated What's wrong with porn?

I'm so damn glad I don't belong to a community that expects me to cover myself from head to toe.
You do live in the States, don't you? I really should visit - the idea of all of those naturist restaurants, theatres, high streets, shopping malls, etc. is just irresistable!

I like freedom.
You've never experienced freedom. Relative freedom? - maybe; absolute freedom? - dream on.

Some people can never be free.
Civilians, for example?

Religion and culture makes it possible to keep people from doing what they want to do.
Not to mention society generally.

Top Tip: You might want to check out the Amazon Rain Forest. Don't expect your creature comforts and mod cons, though!
 
Semantics. I'm no angel - admittedly, but I'm not in the mood right now to debate vocabulary and etymology.
You are using my words in a way I did not intend them and a way that is appropriate.

Yup - that just about sums up North America, the UK, Australia, Europe, Asia, Africa and South America (have I missed anywhere?).
Your point? I was raised Mormon in Utah (north America). We had oppressive cultural traditions there. In fact many are still there.

By "raised apart from it" do you mean "within a different culture", by any chance?! :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: Can we skip the rhetorical device?

We're an intriguing race, aren't we!
Your point?

Other than my being a bloke (a big 'airy butch one wi' muscles on me muscles to boot, I'll 'ave ye know (that's an attempt at a Yorkshire accent, in case it didn't work!) ;)), ..you mean? Mainly because I was raised in western culture, where arty farty pinstripe suits and useless, constricting, inconvenient neck ties, for example, are more the cultural norm.
If you moved to Saudi Arabia would you consider wearing one (you could easily pretend to be a woman under a burkha)?
 
But you do make a point that it is possible that children can be harmed. Why should we care if we have no negative emotional response to this harm? This negative emotional response is known as fear. You want us to act, in part, on this fear.
I'm sorry RandFan - you've lost me here.
 
I'm sorry RandFan - you've lost me here.

It means simply this:

VCP is illegal because people have fear that a possible child molester could possibly see it and could possibly decide to molest a child.

There's no other reason why it is illegal. It's illegal purely out of fear.
 
Your response was an improvement on mine.
Only an "improvement"! I don't know whether to take that as a compliment or a criticism! :(

On a more serious note, in a earlier post your statement that people who disagree with you on the issue of VCP are nearly as despicable as the ones who produce it, is a nasty insult.
I don't believe that "disagree with
" is a correct reference. Perhaps you could remind where I stated so.

Have a nice day!
Good night would be more appropriate, but thanks anyhow. Good day to you too sir. May Lady Luck bless your hallowed turf (That reminds me - I won the lottery today! Only $32 mind. Oh well, better than a poke in the eye with a pointed stick I suppose) :)
 
You do live in the States, don't you? I really should visit - the idea of all of those naturist restaurants, theatres, high streets, shopping malls, etc. is just irresistable!
This is a red herring.

That you don't care for the cities in America is entirely irrelevant. Never mind that the majority of America is rural. Never mind the many fantastic national parks. Never mind that America does quite well in the HDI department (no, we are not the best).

You've never experienced freedom. Relative freedom? - maybe; absolute freedom? - dream on.

Civilians, for example?

Not to mention society generally.
I never claimed absolute freedom. That's just a convenient straw man. I do think we can reason better socities and I think freedom is a very important aspect (see HDI).

Top Tip: You might want to check out the Amazon Rain Forest. Don't expect your creature comforts and mod cons, though!
I've no idea what this is supposed to mean.
 
Amazon Rain Forest
I think it refers to areas where a woman is fully clothed with a string around her waist.
There are supposed to be similar areas in Africa.
 
I'm sorry RandFan - you've lost me here.
You state that VCP could be harmful to children. The only reason I might care about that is if I'm concerned about children. There is an emotional component to that concern. It's generically called fear.
 
You are using my words in a way I did not intend them and a way that is appropriate.
I'm using them how I interpreted them. I suppose you'll just have to be more careful and selective in future, and write what you really mean!

Your point?
Can we skip the rhetorical device?
Your point?
I'm sorry RandFan. I'm not prepared to dumb-down the debate just because you can't keep up.

If you moved to Saudi Arabia would you consider wearing one (you could easily pretend to be a woman under a burkha)?
You've not been to SA have you. A man wearing a burkha and pretending to be a woman really would not be a smart move! But plenty of women right here next door wear them (you really should see the up-market burkha boutiques here - those sequins and jewel-encrusted collars and cuffs must cost an absolute mint!). Even if I could afford one I have to say, the idea has never really crossed my mind, just like the idea of wearing a bikini by the pool instead of surfer shorts hasn't. My wife's bought one though. Takes pride of place in her wardrobe along with her ball gowns and summer frocks.
 
It means simply this:
VCP is illegal because people have fear that a possible child molester could possibly see it and could possibly decide to molest a child.
There's no other reason why it is illegal. It's illegal purely out of fear.
Well you know what my reasoning is. I'm desperately hoping you don't claim that you don't! :(
 
This is a red herring.
That you don't care for the cities in America is entirely irrelevant. Never mind that the majority of America is rural. Never mind the many fantastic national parks. Never mind that America does quite well in the HDI department (no, we are not the best).
I've no idea what this is supposed to mean.
I honestly think you're self-imploding RandFan - I really do!
 
You state that VCP could be harmful to children. The only reason I might care about that is if I'm concerned about children. There is an emotional component to that concern. It's generically called fear.
A few posts back "fear" and "concern" were strangely incompatible. Now they're essentially synonymous! :tongue-ti KABOOM!!!
 
I'm using them how I interpreted them. I suppose you'll just have to be more careful and selective in future, and write what you really mean!
I did write what I really did mean! I'm happy to accomidate your comprehension.

I'm sorry RandFan. I'm not prepared to dumb-down the debate just because you can't keep up.
This is just personal attack. I honestly don't know what your point is. Calling me dumb for your inability to communicate your ideas is rather poor form.

You've not been to SA have you. A man wearing a burkha and pretending to be a woman really would not be a smart move!
I think you've hit on something there. So there is no freedom there for men to wear burkha's and women not to?

But plenty of women right here next door wear them (you really should see the up-market burkha boutiques here - those sequins and jewel-encrusted collars and cuffs must cost an absolute mint!).
Yet western clothing catches on in many Islamic nations for non westerners but the reverse cannot be said.

Even if I could afford one I have to say, the idea has never really crossed my mind, just like the idea of wearing a bikini by the pool instead of surfer shorts hasn't. My wife's bought one though. Takes pride of place in her wardrobe along with her ball gowns and summer frocks.
Is your wife itching to get into a burkha? You should get her one.
 
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You state that VCP could be harmful to children. The only reason I might care about that is if I'm concerned about children. There is an emotional component to that concern. It's generically called fear.

RandFan...wouldn't it be equally reasonable to say that the only reason some might care about banning VCP is because they're concerned about free speech, meaning there is also an emotional component (the fear of losing it), and isn't that also generically called "fear"?

If a person cares not a whit about VCP one way or another, but enters a debate for one side or the other (assuming one is having to choose sides, which is where this seems to have gone...to absolutes), then there is the emotional element of fear, on BOTH sides.

JFrankA talked earlier about paranoia, which, loosely, is fear. Fear of what? Losing the right to have adult pornography through banning child pornography (of all kinds). That is just as much fear, which leads to being just as irrational, as wanting something only because of fear for children.

There is, although it was mocked earlier, truth in there being many issues that our government prohibits us from exercising free speech within the context of. I used discrimination earlier, and was told that it didn't involve thought. But it does. As much as pornography involves thought. There has to be a thought before there can be an action, or no one is really defending anything to begin with. A business owner can discriminate against a woman, as an example, without actually harming a woman. He just refuses her a job. It doesn't harm her physically, it doesn't prohibit her from seeking employment elsewhere, it does nothing to hurt HER, an individual...but we have laws in place giving her the recourse to sue if she believes (more thought) that someone has discriminated against her based on gender. The burden of proof there falls on the employer who has harmed no one, for "real". Just in theory, and not in theory in a way that everyone agrees with.

Perhaps a better example: hostile work environments and sexual harassment. Group of guys in an auto mechanic shop (so cliche, I know) have a pinup calendar on the wall. Gal gets a job there, the calendar doesn't hurt her, it doesn't depict her, it doesn't threaten her directly...but she "feels" like it does...and can sue, therefore. She has recourse if she feels offended (thought, no real harm), and most people would agree that, because historically women have had to fight to gain access to traditionally male employment, the pinup calendar creates a hostile work environment.

I simply don't feel that this is a fear on one side issue. Is it rational, for example, to fear losing freedom of speech simply because we ban one entire genre (child pornography) of pornography? Is that really rational? And aren't those arguments (we start here, then they go after you, then they go after me, blah blah blah) ALSO fear based???
 
Well you know what my reasoning is.
Speculation, bias and appeal to emotion.
  • Children are statistically likely to be harmed by VCP (there is a perceived threat).
  • VCP is disgusting and no one should defend it.
  • Our concern for children should be greater than any concern of loss of freedom for perverts.
 
If rights are only what is left when we pass laws based on fear to control behavior then ultimately the only behavior that will be permissible will be what politicians cannot convince people to be afraid of. This will necessarily be "right behavior" which will, of course, be required. Any other behavior can be seen as threatening to society, and thus fearsome. It will have to be stifled.
I think your seemingly ultra-cynical retort is misguided (see highlighting - read back).

This is what you said in the above quote. Rights are what are left after we pass laws based on fear.
I think, if you refer back, you'll realize that I actually wrote "behaviour", not "fear", but cited fear as a possible result of certain behaviour (like wanton killing, for example) - just one possible result from countless possible results emanating from countless possible behaviours.

Bull hockey. You cited fear as an impetus for the laws. As you've mentioned in tedious repetition you are quite "precise" about what you say. The antecedent and dependent of this construct are very clear.

You seem to think rights are innate. They're not - they're an end from a means. That means is law, which is a set of rules and regulations. Rules and regulations are designed to address and control things, usually behaviour, often dangerous, harmful behaviour, or threat thereof. Rights are what we end up with. Things like fear are what prompts them.
<snip>

And just in case there is some inclination on your part to continue a pointless denial of your intent there are other statements you have made in this part of the discussion reinforcing that exact intent. For example,

<snip>

Laws are designed to protect society. If society is fearful of something that can be assuaged by law, then hell, yes, of course it should be addressed by law

.<snip>

Okay. I "read back". We've "read back".

Explain to me in more detail about how I'm "misguided" about what you said and what you meant.
 
Well you know what my reasoning is. I'm desperately hoping you don't claim that you don't! :(

I do. And I'm sorry. It's based on fear.

There is no proof that someone who gets turned on by children would be convinced it's alright to do so for real because she/he saw VCP. That's fear of what could happen.

The sexual urge is not strong enough to make someone lose control. That's fear of one's own decisions.

If one believes that sexual arousal is that strong, then one can also argue that anger is too, or love, or jealousy, or sorrow, hell all the emotions would be able to do that. But no matter what emotion a person is feeling, the decision to act or not act is still that person's decision. To say that sexual arousal is so strong one can't control one's self is nothing but a cop-out of one's own responsibility.

I'm sorry. Both of your stances are wrong and both are based on fear.
 
RandFan...wouldn't it be equally reasonable to say that the only reason some might care about banning VCP is because they're concerned about free speech, meaning there is also an emotional component (the fear of losing it), and isn't that also generically called "fear"?
I would re-word this. There is an emotional component to wanting to protect free speech. There is an emotional component to pass laws prohibiting murder.

I've never said that fear shouldn't have any bearing. That said, perceived harm cannot be the case in chief.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety".

The police could reduce crime by taking away many of our rights. The right against illegal search and seizure. The right against self incrimination. The right to due process.

I simply don't feel that this is a fear on one side issue. Is it rational, for example, to fear losing freedom of speech simply because we ban one entire genre (child pornography) of pornography?
YES! Someone earlier made the point that freedom is not usually lost in one fell swoop. It starts out by getting us to give up freedoms for things we don't care about.
 

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