Obama and the Gay Military...

[GreyICE]

If you insist that openly gay people can exist in a dictatorship, I have a challenge for you. Name one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Cuba

Do you EVER stop being wrong? Cuba seems about the same level as America, which, let me check... is probably a dictatorship too, according to you.

 

[cwalner]

It is not such a huge freaking sacrifice for a woman to use different words to describe her life partner or not to say anything at all.

Edited by LibraryLady: 

Edited for civility.

While not due to military environment, I was still in the closet in college. The constant worry of watching what I say for fear somebody might find out my secret caused immense damage to me psychologically. So much that I could not concentrate on my studies and failed out of the first college I attended and resulted in years of therapy to get over it. It almost put me into a hospital, or worse, dead (if I had actually followed through on the numerous suicidal thoughts induced by this stress).

To read you dismissing that as 'not such a huge freaking sacrifice' is insulting and demeaning. While I may be ignorant of what it is like to be in the military, it barely holds a candle to the level of ignorance you just displayed about what it is like to be a closeted homosexual in America.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Edited by LibraryLady: 

Edited for civility.

While not due to military environment, I was still in the closet in college. The constant worry of watching what I say for fear somebody might find out my secret caused immense damage to me psychologically. So much that I could not concentrate on my studies and failed out of the first college I attended and resulted in years of therapy to get over it. It almost put me into a hospital, or worse, dead (if I had actually followed through on the numerous suicidal thoughts induced by this stress).

To read you dismissing that as 'not such a huge freaking sacrifice' is insulting and demeaning. While I may be ignorant of what it is like to be in the military, it barely holds a candle to the level of ignorance you just displayed about what it is like to be a closeted homosexual in America.

Hear Hear.

One of my best friends from my time in service is a lesbian. It was very discomforting for her to have to tell me before I moved into her house (as a roommate, for the last 1 1/2 months of my enlistment). It was difficult because she was worried that I was too straight-laced and would rat her out, not for any other reason.

(on a somewhat related note...it was quite interesting being in the bedroom next to hers when her significant other stayed the night... )

 

[Darat]

...snip... You have no concept of the emotional stress one undergoes constantly checking thier words making sure that they never accidentally let slip the wrong pronoun.

...snip...

You have my utmost sympathy - whilst I was "out" in my family and social circle from about 16 I was not out at work until my early 20s, and the constant being on your guard, having to watch everything you say is immensely stressful, it is a part of discrimination that I think is hard to understand, unless you have been the victim of it, and one of the parts that is not often discussed.

 

[cwalner]

You have my utmost sympathy - whilst I was "out" in my family and social circle from about 16 I was not out at work until my early 20s, and the constant being on your guard, having to watch everything you say is immensely stressful, it is a part of discrimination that I think is hard to understand, unless you have been the victim of it, and one of the parts that is not often discussed.

Thank you,

I am mostly (though, as my previous post shows, not completely) over it. I have since adopted a stance of being out, but usually not aggressively. I usually don't make a point of telling my coworkers that I'm gay (the ones who are also my friends know already, of course) but I am done watching my pronouns and trying to keep track of who does and does not know.

I also make exceptions if a coworker makes blantantly anti-gay remarks in my presence. In that case, I simply interject 'You do realize that I am gay, don't you?' But then again, I do have a bit of an evil streak and watching them try to squirm thier way out after that is just too much fun.

This thread just got me going because I know how difficult it is to try to stay in the closet and what kind of damage it actually can cause. Bill's assertion that it is no big deal just sent me past my breaking point.

 

[Alan]

Here are two hypothetical situations:

1) A man has been ordered to leave his home and the people who love him. He has been deployed, ordered to spend months in a city among people who hate him. He is in the U.S. Army. There is no way for him to know who is an enemy and who is a civilian until it could be too late; he knows this. His intense distrust edges over to abject terror every time his mind unavoidably conjures up another obvious “what if”. During a time of awaiting the next orders, which he fears could be his last, he begins to record a message for his girlfriend and young children.

Would you have tried to tell him to "shut up" before he said the word "girlfriend"? Would you want him to be fired if he said it because it is wildly inappropriate to imply sexual orientation in the U.S. military?


2) A woman fights for her country, on a dangerous landscape far from home. She is in the U.S. Army. As time goes on and the opposition forces mount, she becomes increasingly aware of her clearly escalating risk of death. She already received news of the deaths of some of her friends. Learned helplessness starts to set in. She begins to say, in a flash of overwhelmingly powerful terror, that she misses her wife and their children.

Would you have tried to tell her to "shut up" before she says the word "wife"? Would you want her to be fired if she said it, because it is wildly inappropriate to imply sexual orientation in the U.S. military?


Yes, they are emotionally loaded hypothetical stories. To ignore the emotional aspect of humanity when you think about this topic is to reduce your understanding of it.

 

[Toke]

Regarding the coworker reaction.

A cook told me of sometime (70-80es) he were in the A.B. mess room explaining that he would leave early the next day, as he and one of the AB's were going ashore to get rings.

His description of the sudden quiet in the room and the accept of his next remark "I don't want any talk about it" were rather amusing.

It think there were some relief the next day when they turned up with rings in the ears not on the fingers.
(I don't know if he were gay or not, but he had a great sense of humour)

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Here are two hypothetical situations:

1) A man has been ordered to leave his home and the people who love him. He has been deployed, ordered to spend months in a city among people who hate him. He is in the U.S. Army. There is no way for him to know who is an enemy and who is a civilian until it could be too late; he knows this. His intense distrust edges over to abject terror every time his mind unavoidably conjures up another obvious “what if”. During a time of awaiting the next orders, which he fears could be his last, he begins to record a message for his girlfriend and young children.

Would you have tried to tell him to "shut up" before he said the word "girlfriend"? Would you want him to be fired if he said it because it is wildly inappropriate to imply sexual orientation in the U.S. military?


2) A woman fights for her country, on a dangerous landscape far from home. She is in the U.S. Army. As time goes on and the opposition forces mount, she becomes increasingly aware of her clearly escalating risk of death. She already received news of the deaths of some of her friends. Learned helplessness starts to set in. She begins to say, in a flash of overwhelmingly powerful terror, that she misses her wife and their children.

Would you have tried to tell her to "shut up" before she says the word "wife"? Would you want her to be fired if she said it, because it is wildly inappropriate to imply sexual orientation in the U.S. military?


Yes, they are emotionally loaded hypothetical stories. To ignore the emotional aspect of humanity when you think about this topic is to reduce your understanding of it.

Nom'd, Sir.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Can the military tell them not to sleep with their spouses?

of course. In rare situations.
And so, what are you getting at and why do you ask?

Some of the people arguing are in countries where openly gay people are currently serving in the military, and are struggling to understand why the US is a special case.

So?

 

[Bill Thompson]

You switched between them. I was just going by what you were writing!

Only in showing what already is approved of and not approved of in in civilian societies and saying that the military standard should be higher. Was that confusing to you?

 

[zooterkin]

of course. In rare situations.

For example?

So?

I was pointing out that you were wrong in your summary of the people arguing against you. The fact is, gays are serving in the military in many countries around the world without the dire consequences you predict.

 

[Bill Thompson]

The military is not just a job.

Where do you get the idea it is?

Many jobs have survivor benefits as well.

But true the Military is full of bigoted rapists by what you have said.

Only according to someone who takes something out of context and cannot read very well.

What do you mean by "survivor benefits"? Are you saying that being in the military is kind of like being a fireman or a policenam? If so, you do not know what you are talking about.

Is that how you think serving the miltiary is something like a typical job?

Oh wait, you are worried that maybe it ISN'T like a typical job and so you take something I wrote out of context to change the subject. Now, did you think that would not be a transparently obvious destraction?

 

[Toke]

There were a case of a Danish submarine chief engineer who announced that he were actually a woman. The last I heard was that the navy demanded his/her head examined before the next dive.

 

[Bill Thompson]

For example?

If an officer ran off to vegas and married an enlisted person in Vegas. The military would make sure they kept seperated during the court marshal proceedings.

I was pointing out that you were wrong in your summary of the people arguing against you. The fact is, gays are serving in the military in many countries around the world without the dire consequences you predict.

So? I also made it clear you cannot say what would work in one culture will work in another. And it is not a logical argument you are making. It may work out that other countries will regret their decision when the proverbial **** hits the proverbial fan.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Edited by LibraryLady: 

Edited for civility.

While not due to military environment, I was still in the closet in college. The constant worry of watching what I say for fear somebody might find out my secret caused immense damage to me psychologically. So much that I could not concentrate on my studies and failed out of the first college I attended and resulted in years of therapy to get over it. It almost put me into a hospital, or worse, dead (if I had actually followed through on the numerous suicidal thoughts induced by this stress).

To read you dismissing that as 'not such a huge freaking sacrifice' is insulting and demeaning. While I may be ignorant of what it is like to be in the military, it barely holds a candle to the level of ignorance you just displayed about what it is like to be a closeted homosexual in America.

Then don't join the military in the United States.

 

[zooterkin]

If an officer ran off to vegas and married an enlisted person in Vegas. The military would make sure they kept seperated during the court marshal proceedings.

Pretty rare, then... (And it's martial, not marshal, btw.)

So? I also made it clear you cannot say what would work in one culture will work in another.

You haven't offered any reasons why people in the US are so different that it won't work there.

And it is not a logical argument you are making.

In what way?

It may work out that other countries will regret their decision when the proverbial **** hits the proverbial fan.

Which would be what, exactly? How much worse than Afghanistan or Iraq does it get?

 

[Alan]

Those reasons for the U.S. military to be held to a higher standard are special pleading. Why do any of those things mean that a man is allowed to say "my girlfriend" according to DADT and not "my boyfriend"?

Please answer my questions.

In a civilian job:
"I have a boyfriend": does not provide too much information.
"I am attracted to men": provides too much information.

Have I got that right?

Here are two hypothetical situations:

1) A man has been ordered to leave his home and the people who love him. He has been deployed, ordered to spend months in a city among people who hate him. He is in the U.S. Army. There is no way for him to know who is an enemy and who is a civilian until it could be too late; he knows this. His intense distrust edges over to abject terror every time his mind unavoidably conjures up another obvious “what if”. During a time of awaiting the next orders, which he fears could be his last, he begins to record a message for his girlfriend and young children.

Would you have tried to tell him to "shut up" before he said the word "girlfriend"? Would you want him to be fired if he said it because it is wildly inappropriate to imply sexual orientation in the U.S. military?


2) A woman fights for her country, on a dangerous landscape far from home. She is in the U.S. Army. As time goes on and the opposition forces mount, she becomes increasingly aware of her clearly escalating risk of death. She already received news of the deaths of some of her friends. Learned helplessness starts to set in. She begins to say, in a flash of overwhelmingly powerful terror, that she misses her wife and their children.

Would you have tried to tell her to "shut up" before she says the word "wife"? Would you want her to be fired if she said it, because it is wildly inappropriate to imply sexual orientation in the U.S. military?


Yes, they are emotionally loaded hypothetical stories. To ignore the emotional aspect of humanity when you think about this topic is to reduce your understanding of it.

 

[cwalner]

Then don't join the military in the United States.

Nice job of completely missing the point.

I was pointing out what happens to somebody who is in the closet. This is contrary to your claim that

Telling gay people to be quiet about it is not asking too much by comparison.

Forcing gay service members into the closet is asking a lot. It is asking them to endure additional stress that you are completely unable to comprehend. I used myself as an example, but while my case may have been more pronounced, the stress is not unique to me, as Darat already confirmed.

Please explain why it is appropriate to force some soldiers to endure this stress. Please explain what benefit you think the military gains from placing this additional stress on those soldiers.

For what its worth. I did ask a co-worker of mine, who is used to be an Airman about this issue. He said that DADT is terrible for the military, and he knew of (unofficially of course) several members of his unit that deployed with him to Korea that were gay. He said there was never any issue about unit cohesion and claims that there would be are complete nonsense.

So somebody who does know what is like to be in the military completely disagrees with you. Do you know of anybody who knows what is like to be in the closet that disagrees with me?

 

[ponderingturtle]

If an officer ran off to vegas and married an enlisted person in Vegas. The military would make sure they kept seperated during the court marshal proceedings.

No one is arguing against fraternization rules though.

What cases will the military charge someone for having legal sex with a civilian aside from homosexual sex?

 

[ponderingturtle]

For what its worth. I did ask a co-worker of mine, who is used to be an Airman about this issue. He said that DADT is terrible for the military, and he knew of (unofficially of course) several members of his unit that deployed with him to Korea that were gay. He said there was never any issue about unit cohesion and claims that there would be are complete nonsense.

But you are missing Bills point. What happens with the crap hits the fan and they all turn into rapists?

Did you think to ask that?