Obama and the Gay Military...

[zooterkin]

The military has the legal right to tell straight people who they can and cannot sleep with.

Can the military tell them not to sleep with their spouses?

Telling gay people to be quiet about it is not asking too much by comparison.

The people to are arguig this either do not know what iit is like in the military or they are equating it to having women serve in the military.

Some of the people arguing are in countries where openly gay people are currently serving in the military, and are struggling to understand why the US is a special case.

 

[Alan]

You mix what I say about my current civilian job with military policy. They are very different.

You keep switching from civlian world and the military world.

You switched between them. I was just going by what you were writing!

Wow, where do you work? Forget the miltiary for a second. In my office, sharing your sexual preference "f you wish"will get you fired or at least in trouble. Saying "yeah, I prefer guys, sexually" or "yeah, I prefer women, sexually" will get you shot over to admin like a bullet.

It doesn't belong in the office. Noone needs to hear that crap. It does not belong in the workplace.

So it sure as hell does not belong in the military.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The military is not just a job.

Where do you get the idea it is?

Many jobs have survivor benefits as well.

But true the Military is full of bigoted rapists by what you have said.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Wow, where do you work? Forget the miltiary for a second. In my office, sharing your sexual preference "f you wish"will get you fired or at least in trouble. Saying "yeah, I prefer guys, sexually" or "yeah, I prefer women, sexually" will get you shot over to admin like a bullet.

So saying "I want my wife to share our health insurance" is right out right? Good to see someone making a stand against family health insurance plans.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Consider someone saying this:

If you worked for a company where most everyone was a hemophiliac, you can expect that company to disallow the display and use of sharp object. Sure hemophilia is unnatural, but other people need to make compromises so that they can do their job.

It is the same thing with straight people. Sure being straight is unnatural. SOme of them feel a little icky around photos of men kissing. But is that really so bad? I mean people like us feel icky watching breaders make out too.

So the way that some straight poeple might feel is understandable.

Or try this "If you work at a company were everyone is a racist, letting them have any idea that your wife is black is clearly enough to get you fired".

 

[ponderingturtle]

I did not say that.

Actualy you did

Forget the miltiary for a second. In my office, sharing your sexual preference "f you wish"will get you fired or at least in trouble. Saying "yeah, I prefer guys, sexually" or "yeah, I prefer women, sexually" will get you shot over to admin like a bullet.

"casual talk about your spouse"? Oh yeah, sure . Do you really think that I am claiming that people get fired at an office for causal talk about your spouse?

You are letting people know about your sexual interst in the opposite sex.

 

[Sledge]

Like I said, that's exactly what he's claiming. Now he's just trying to back pedal out of it. Should probably break out the popcorn, this could be fun.

 

[ponderingturtle]

But we are talking about the military. We are not talking about injustice in society. In a perfect world, as I have stated already several times, there would not be a military at all.

Yes, you have made it clear that you think Truman was wrong to try to intergrate the military before much less bigoted institutions like baseball got intergrated. The military should be the most bigoted institution in society, not a method of social change.

 

[Alan]

In a civilian job:
"I have a boyfriend": does not provide too much information.
"I am attracted to men": provides too much information.

Have I got that right?

 

[Alan]

In the U.S. military:
A man saying "I miss my wife and kids": acceptable.
A woman saying: "I miss my wife and kids": unacceptable.

Have I got that right, too?

 

[Alan]

The people to are arguig this either do not know what iit is like in the military or they are equating it to having women serve in the military.

Perhaps some of the people arguing do know what it's like to be in a military with openly non-heterosexual people. And they see that it's not bad. Allowing people to serve openly is not some newfangled idea that no country has tried out yet. It's nowhere near being new!

 

[Darat]

Perhaps some of the people arguing do know what it's like to be in a military with openly non-heterosexual people. And they see that it's not bad. Allowing people to serve openly is not some newfangled idea that no country has tried out yet. It's nowhere near being new!

Not only is it not new but none of the terrible consequence Bill believes would happen have actually happened in those other countries.

It would appear that Bill has a very, very low opinion of the USA military forces and the people that serve in those forces.

 

[Bill Thompson]

If you worked for a company where most everyone was a hemophiliac, you can expect that company to disallow the display and use of sharp object. Sure hemophilia is unnatural, but other people need to make compromises so that they can do their job.

It is the same thing with straight people. Sure being straight is a bit odd according to some people Yet, some straight people feel a little icky around photos of men kissing. But is that really so bad? I mean real people (like us) feel icky watching breeders make out too.

So the way that some straight people might feel is understandable.


Clearly we can all agree that DADT is a problem. It is a problem with some straight people abiet "close minded" straight people or whatever names you want to hurl and these brutes. But the military's existence is a problem too. If you want a more perfect world I think you should be spending your time and energy finding out a way to live in a world where militaries are no longer necessary.


What is lacking in this discussion thread is the concept of "a necessary evil". Nuclear weapons are evil. But it can be argued that it is -- or, at least was -- a necessary evil in preventing the cold war from becoming World War II. You know, they called it a cold war for a reason...and it is not because Russia and North America get cold in the winter.


DATD is bad. No one is disputing that. But it is a necessary evil. There are too many squeamish straight people in the world. Although it is their problem it is still a problem that needs to be addressed and we need to bend the laws of nature to accommodate them.


Likewise the policy that officers cannot date enlisted men is bad. But it is a necessary evil.


And even if you insist it is not necessary it is still not your call. The Generals and the Admirals have free reign. The military is not a democracy.


If you insist that openly gay people can exist in a dictatorship, I have a challenge for you. Name one.

 

[Darat]

If you worked for a company where most everyone was a hemophiliac, you can expect that company to disallow the display and use of sharp object. Sure hemophilia is unnatural, but other people need to make compromises so that they can do their job.

Haemophilia is unnatural - since when?!

...snip...

DATD is bad. No one is disputing that. But it is a necessary evil. There are too many squeamish straight people in the world. Although it is their problem it is still a problem that needs to be addressed and we need to bend the laws of nature to accommodate them.


...snip...

As I said you have a very, very low opinion of the people that make up the USA military forces.

 

[Bill Thompson]

In the U.S. military:
A man saying "I miss my wife and kids": acceptable.
A woman saying: "I miss my wife and kids": unacceptable.

Have I got that right, too?

LOL. Got something acutally important to protest?

If your commanding officer tells you to open a vein becuse they need your blood type, you cannot say no.

If your commanding officer tells you to you have to stay awake for a week, you do your best to do it.

It is not such a huge freaking sacrifice for a woman to use different words to describe her life partner or not to say anything at all.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Haemophilia is unnatural - since when?!

I should have said "uncommon".

The word "unnatural" is a meaningless word. If it exists, it is natural.

As I said you have a very, very low opinion of the people that make up the USA military forces.

You make a serious accusation on a post that I make where for once I am obviously being ironic.

Wait, I think you are misunderstanding DATD with DOD.

DADT is Don't Ask Don't Tell.

DOD is department of defense.

My saying DADT has nothing to do with an opinion of the military.

 

[gumboot]

If you insist that openly gay people can exist in a dictatorship, I have a challenge for you. Name one.

Hadrian? By all accounts he was a raging homosexual, and also considered the first of the "five good Emperors" which probably puts him in the running for "Best Dictator Ever".

 

[cwalner]

The military has the legal right to tell straight people who they can and cannot sleep with. Telling gay people to be quiet about it is not asking too much by comparison.

Except for the minor detail you seem to have forgotten that the rules about who military people can and cannot sleep with (ie fraterization) apply to both straights and gays. Telling gay people to be quiet about relationships that do not fall under the fraterization rules impose an additional burden that servers no purpose other than appeasing the anti-gay sensibilities of some people in the military.

And by the way, I agree that fraterization rules should be applied equally. If it is wrong for male officer to have a relationship with a female private, it is just as wrong if both are the same gender. If the military has rules against adultery, it should make no difference if the affair is with somebody of the same or opposite genders.

However, it if is acceptable for a straight soldier to have a one-night stand every leave with people of the opposite gender, it should be just as acceptable if they are with the same gender. (Also if you think that straight soldiers who do have repeated one-night stands don't come back to base and brag thier 'conquests' to thier buddies, you are incredibly naive - Hell, straight guys who don't, often make up such 'conquests' to brag about to thier buddies, military or not)

 

[Darat]

...snip...


You make a serious accusation on a post that I make where for once I am obviously being ironic.

Wait, I think you are misunderstanding DATD with DOD.

DADT is Don't Ask Don't Tell.

DOD is department of defense.

My saying DADT has nothing to do with an opinion of the military.

My point was not made based on any one post of yours - that you have a very, very low opinion of the personnel of the USA military forces is based on your view that they, unlike many tens of thousands of other military personnel in the world, are the only ones that cannot deal with someone saying "I am a homosexual".

 

[gumboot]

But we are talking about the military. We are not talking about injustice in society. In a perfect world, as I have stated already several times, there would not be a military at all.

In case you haven't noticed, the military is part of society, and its actions, values, and design is dictated by society. And as I have pointed out, the military - as the defender of the ideals of society - should be the first to adopt those ideals.