The VFF Test is On!

Why, oh why, am I bothering with this thread any longer? I feel like I'm talking to myself. I take the time and effort to lay out some direct and, I hope, clear descriptions of the philosophical errors VFF is making - and she even bothers to "quote" some of them - but where does it get us? Nowhere. Her responses even to the sections of my post she "quotes" scurry round the issues at hand, go off on tangents or discuss something entirely irrelevant. There's no engagement with the substantive issues, no critical thinking, no self-reflection - just naive self-delusion and anti-rational, anti-sceptical assertion.

Lost cause, this one. What a pity.
 
You think things of me that aren't true, and based on things that haven't even happened. And that's worse than when I'm claiming something about a past experience, that very well could have happened the way I say it has.
No. You may well ace the IIG demonstration. I'm sceptical, but you might. What I "think" about you, though, and what I've been concentrating on over the ast few pages, is trying to get you to contextualise your past experience in light of the IIG test. That is, I want you to understand, accept and acknolwedge that the IIG test does not stand alone, and that its results (positive or negative) will lend some evidential weight to whether or not you really did see Dr Carlson's missing kidney.

And yet - you won't do that. You continue to assert that no matter what the results of the test this weekend, you still "really, really" did see Dr Calrson's kidney. You can't even bear to question this account, even though it is based on the flimsiest of recollections and not a shred of evidence whatsoever (we may even say it has evidence against it, given that you did not write it down in a test in which the only thing you had to do was write down similar things!). You talk about "constants" and "again" - this is bad science. In fact, it's barely even science at all. Don't you understand that?

Of course you don't.
 
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... Don't forget that organs consist of vibrating patterns, for real. ...

:confused:

What are these vibrating patterns that organs have? Can you explain what you mean?

You can see my post #475 for my understanding of this subject.

There are two kinds of vibration-

1.) Molecules move around and bounce into each other- this is related to temperature.

2.) The atoms in the molecules move back and forth along their bonds.

Here is a fun wikipedia fact: "The typical order of the atomic vibrations frequencies is 10^13Hz , and that of the amplitudes is 10^-11 m."

that means 10,000,000,000,000 vibrations per second, and they move back and forth 0.000000010 cm with each vibration.

Can the human brain perceive things happening at these speeds and sizes?

If you see the organs glowing different colors, just say so, but do not say there are vibrational patterns unless you can explain why they are vibrational patterns specifically, and not ether, or demons, or auras, etc.

Forget the philosophical arguments and occam's razor. Why are you not following the scientific method and doing a simple 10 minute repeatable, falsifiable, double blind experiment?

Since you haven't done this, stop bringing up science, and just admit your paranormal beliefs are completely separate from your scientific training. You are acting as if you had not studied chemistry and physics, so there is no reason to talk about science at all with regards to your paranormal experiences.

Just talk like any other claimant, who says "I really really can do this paranormal thing, and I refuse to believe or test any other explanation." Leave science out of it.
 
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Vision From Feeling,

Here is the million dollar challenge application of a smart, highly educated woman who was a math professor. Although she knew lots about statistics and the scientific method, she was able to fool herself into believing she could change the direction of a flame with her mind.

If she could be wrong, anybody can be fooled by the way the human mind works.

Beth Clarkson, Flame Thrower
 
Here is a fun wikipedia fact: "The typical order of the atomic vibrations frequencies is 1013 Hz, and that of the amplitudes is 10-11 m." :eye-poppi

that means 1013 vibrations per second, and they move back and forth 0.000000010 cm with each vibration.


That text didn't quite come out right. in case of confusion, that's 1013Hz (10,000,000,000,000 vibrations per second) and 10-11m amplitude.
 
And if Occam's razor were always true, we would still live in a flat Earth and many of our most beautiful and complex scientific principles would simply not be acknowledged.

OK, this is slightly off topic, but I can't help commenting here on the astounding lack that woos such as Anita show, not just of knowledge and understanding, but also of imagination and the ability to actually think through their own claims.

Occam's razor is best stated as simply "Don't multiply entities unnecessarily.". What that means is not that the simplest theory is likely to be the best, but that the one that makes the least assumptions is likely to be best. Try applying that to the flat Earth vs. spherical Earth argument.

Spherical Earth - take the hypothesis that the Earth, and by inference other astronomical objects, are more or less spherical. What else needs to be added to make this work? Well, gravity for one. You need a force that pulls towards the centre of the Earth, no matter where you are on the surface. Conveniently, this also suggests that other bodies have a similar force and therefore orbits (and therefore seasons, phases, eclipses, etc.), tides and so on are all explained with no further assumptions. In fact, we know that there is something that makes things fall towards the Earth, so the exact properties are not much of an assumption at all. As far as Occam's razor goes this isn't a bad theory at all.

Flat Earth - so how does this hypothesis go? Well firstly, water is a problem. Either you need something to stop it falling off, which has not been observed, or you need some mechanism to either recycle it or create more. That's one big assumption. Then you have the day/night cycle. How exactly do we get days and nights in different places at different times without resorting to Discworld-style slow light? There's another assumption needed somewhere. Seasons present another problem, presumably related to the rather serious problem of orbits. In order to get seasons either the Earth or Sun has to be bouncing around all over the place, which requires the addition of some force making them do so. Eclipses also become a major problem needing yet another solution. Then there's the horizon problem, where ships can be seen dropping below the horizon as they travel away, as well as the fact that there shouldn't be a horizon at all.

So what does Occam's razor really say about this? Is VFF correct here? Of course not Occamr's razor clearly states that in the absence of any scientific testing, we should prefer the spherical Earth hypothesis because there are far fewer assumptions, and those assumptions are much less extreme.

Of course, she is not entirely wrong in the basis for her statement. Occam's razor is not always correct. Particle physics is a great example of this - we used to have just three fundamental particles, now we have over 20. Where she goes wrong is jumping from knowing that Occam is not always correct to imagining that all our scientific breakthroughs are a result of it being wrong. This is simply not true. In addition, she betrays her lack of actual thought behind her statements. If she had really thought about the consequences of Occam's razor applied to the question of the shape of the Earth, she would have come to the conclusion above. Instead, she simply blurted out something she thought would support her other claims, without noticing that it actually directly contradicts her.

The problem here simply is that I maintain that the memory is genuine and not false, and that you will not grant me the right to that.

Of course we won't. That's the whole point, and is why people keep pointing out that insisting on this proves that you are not in the least bit scientific or skeptical. As you said above:
I detected that the left kidney was missing and this claim will be tested on the upcoming IIG Preliminary demonstration
The claim that you can detect kidneys is exactly what is being tested. You admit that yourself. If we knew that your memory was genuine, there would be no point in doing the test since we would already know the answer. Of course, we do already know the answer - your kidney claim is exactly as genuine as the rest of your claims.

You then give yourself away in the very next line:
And in either case, I will have detected that the kidney was missing in that one experience, because I actually did.
You have no intention of testing your claim at all. Regardless of the result, you will continue claiming to detect kidneys. We all know that you will fail, and I include you in that "we". The test is just a sham to get yourself more attention. The only surprising thing here is that you're willing to spend so much money on something that you know you can't actually do.
 
Hello.

As a member of the IIG I wanted to let you all know that we did a test of UStream this weekend and it looks like we will be able to live-stream the event.

The URL should be: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/vision-from-feeling-demonstration
The event will begin around 11AM Pacific Time.
The Demonstration Protocol will be broadcast on a loop for approximately 15 minutes at the beginning of the event.
We are planning to post the Demonstration Protocol text on the IIG website as well. (I don't know what the URL will be yet.)

Everyone at the IIG is well aware of the interest in this claim and we know that our silence has been a bit frustrating to some people here. Please keep in mind that the IIG has been involved in testing paranormal claims for the past ten years (many tests have been done for the JREF MDC) and we take our work very seriously and have never created "flawed" protocols before and we do not believe that we have done so now.

I will post again with any updated information.

Thank you.

Derek Bartholomaus
Independent Investigations Group


Many thanks for the heads-up.


M.
 
Yes Ward, I would say FACT is a dead horse for Anita.
She dodged my question of "what did Dr Carlson say to you".
I imagine eyebrows are raised at FACT - they don't think she has an ability worth testing, but she really, really did detect Dr Carlson's missing kidney so she now has a pony show at the IIG.
Mind boggling really.
 
It is astounding to me the time that has passed since Anita first brought her claim here. The fact that we have not seen a single tiny, little glimpse of this supposed ability is astonishing.

At least most of the other woos have something to show for their beliefs, at least they demonstrate what they believe to be an ability. Anita has not even done that.

All we have seen is mental gymnastics, and ample evidence that Anita suffers from schizotypal personality disorder.

I will be following her claims so far as her failing the IIG. I don't think she'll be needing any more attention after that.
 
I will be following her claims so far as her failing the IIG. I don't think she'll be needing any more attention after that.

Don't be thinking she won't have attention during the subsequent hauntel motel room(s) test that will occur however the IIG test plays out. Anita has her skeptical Randi followers. It would be foolish to think otherwise.

Unlike you rascals I'm not betting against her ;)
 
OK, this is slightly off topic, but I can't help commenting here on the astounding lack that woos such as Anita show, not just of knowledge and understanding, but also of imagination and the ability to actually think through their own claims.

There have been a lot of high quality posts debunking Anita, but I have to say this one of the best ones. An excellent example of how to address woos who pull out the whole flat earth canard in relation to Occam's razor.
 
I am far too busy with schoolwork this week to respond to everyone's questions and comments at this time. I especially look forward to answering Ness36's post about vibrational information in science. If I had to draw a parallel to known vibrational information, the way I experience "vibrational information" is more consistent with it being a quantum physical wavefunction description of the atom as a whole, involving all the qualities of the nucleus and the electron distribution, and also other related parameters such as temperature, pressure, motion, etc. The experience of vibrational information goes far beyond being something that could simply be derived from thermal information. Of course I can not claim that my experience of vibrational information is a perception of real-world information, it is more likely to be a synesthetic fabrication in my mind, triggered by things that I see that automatically associate into feelings and images. The IIG Preliminary demonstration will show whether there's more to it than that. Anyhow, I look forward to preparing a more elaborate answer later on.

No speculation is necessary. If your own account of what happened is accurate then you deliberately chose not to record one of the strongest perceptions you have ever had because you suspected it would prove to be wrong. This is proof that you are a very bad scientist indeed, and shows your repeated assertion that you genuinely want to find out if your perceptions reflect reality to be a barefaced lie. Anyone who had the slightest scientific knowledge and integrity would know that a strong perception which turned out to be false is as valuable a piece of data in your investigation of your supposed ability as a strong perception which turned out to be true, and that it was absolutely essential that you record it. Your credibility as a scientific investigator is completely and permanently destroyed by your own account of this incident.
I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly as to what you said. I agree entirely. Data, including unexpected ones that do not seem to fit with prior data or with expected values may never be omitted for any reason, and must at least be included in the discussion section. However, what I have here is not your average typical "scientific investigation", because there is so much negative criticism constantly trying to push me down.

If you are in a science lab and working on perhaps a controversial subject that other scientists don't believe in, at least they are going to let you invest with your time and effort, knowing that science will prevail and that you will reach to the right conclusion. But in this investigation, my "precious hypothesis" has only been experienced by me and those who are near me, and to protect it I had to choose to not write down "missing left kidney", because logically I was fully convinced that it could not be true. Because I had already experienced so many accurate and interesting cases in the past, and I felt that those were entitled to a test, and that if I were wrong this time and with something as significant as a missing large organ, I would not be given a test.

But turns out I was right again, so it all works out.

I am attending Wednesday's FACT Skeptics meeting and Dr. Carlson has promised to let me practice seeing that his kidney is missing. LightinDarkness you are of course invited to attend, if you so choose.

Only four days left! Don't laugh at me if I fail! ;)
 
But turns out I was right again, so it all works out.
No it doesn't all work out because you didn't write anything down. So you cannot rule out the possibility that your mind is exaggerating, or even inventing, your memory of your perception, and as far as anyone else is concerned it never happened.

Only four days left! Don't laugh at me if I fail!
I won't laugh at you if you fail. I will only laugh at you if you refuse to draw the necessary conclusion from that failure.
 
So why does everyone continue to feed her with attention?

To get more attention for ourselves, obviously.:)

I am far too busy with schoolwork

Yet you have time to fly across the country to take part in a test which you are absolutely adamant will not actually achieve anything.

If I had to draw a parallel to known vibrational information, the way I experience "vibrational information" is more consistent with it being a quantum physical wavefunction description of the atom as a whole, involving all the qualities of the nucleus and the electron distribution, and also other related parameters such as temperature, pressure, motion, etc. The experience of vibrational information goes far beyond being something that could simply be derived from thermal information.

After spending over a year here, I still don't think you've grasped a very important point here. This is not a forum full of mindless idiots. Many of us deal, in great detail, with the concepts you parrot here every day. You can't just spew out a pile of cargo-cult sciency gibberish and expect anyone to take you vaguely seriously. Maybe where you're from merely mentioning the words "quantum" and "vibration" will get you the worship you apparently desire, but in the real world full of real scientists, it just make you look like a rather hilarious little child playing at being a grown-up without ever understanding why adults do the things they do.

Only four days left! Don't laugh at me if I fail!

Trust me, we haven't stopped laughing at you yet, and your inevitable failure is not going to change that.
 
It's the excuses that I am looking forward to. Any speculation as to what she'll come up with, as to why she failed?
 
…If I had to draw a parallel to known vibrational information, the way I experience "vibrational information" is more consistent with it being a quantum physical wavefunction description of the atom as a whole, involving all the qualities of the nucleus and the electron distribution, and also other related parameters such as temperature, pressure, motion, etc. …


I have a chemistry bachelors degree. I have probably taken the same classes as you. I am sure others in this forum have taken more classes and know more than either of us. I have derived the Schrodinger equation for the wavefunction the electron in a of a 1 electron atom (ex. Hydrogen) in my classes.

The “Quantum physical wavefunction description of the atom of a whole” doesn’t really mean any thing special. It sounds complicated but all it means is you know where the electrons are likely to be in an atom. Great. That doesn’t tell you anything about kidneys, bacteria, or migraines.

Here is a picture of the electron probability distribution. The nodes show where there are no electrons. Where there are lots of dots, there is higher probability for electrons to exist.


Here is one of the electron probabilities for a hydrogen atom. This shows that the electron has a high probability of being at a certain distance from the nucleus.


The simple 1 electron distribution (ex. Hydrogen) can be derived by hand. Add a few more electrons and you can do it with high powered super computers. If you have as a multi electron element or molecule, the Schrodinger wave function is too complicated to be solved by any computer. So can you sense in your mind what no modern supercomputer can calculate???


other related parameters such as temperature,
pressure, motion, etc.

Does this mean you can sense temperature, pressure or motion? So you could tell the difference between boiling and cold water behind a screen? Or a vacuum in a jar, and a jar of pressurized air? What does temperature, pressure and motion tell you about kidneys, migrains, or the flavor of icecream a friend is eating?

The experience of vibrational information goes far beyond being something that could simply be derived from thermal information.

Far beyond? What is it then exactly??? You said vibration? All vibrations are related to thermal information, since they are kinetic energy, which is related to thermal energy.

Of course I can not claim that my experience of vibrational information is a perception of real-world information, it is more likely to be a synesthetic fabrication in my mind, triggered by things that I see that automatically associate into feelings and images.

If it is a synesthetic fabrication in your mind of feelings and images, why say “vibrational” or “quantum physical wavefunction description of the atom as a whole”. Why not say “glowing green”? I know if I saw things I would say “I saw some crazy glowing organs inside someone, so I knew they were sick”. If I lived in medieval times I would say it was demons. Since you live in modern times you are saying “quantum physical wavefunction description of the atom as a whole”
 
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It's the excuses that I am looking forward to. Any speculation as to what she'll come up with, as to why she failed?

She's made them already, in this very thread.

Her powers don't work "all the time" or "continuously". That's the only get out she needs, and she's made it already, more than once, over the last few pages here. She doesn't consider a failure in this test to be the death knell to her powers, only to suggestions of their frequency.

Of course, that's entirely contradictory with her earlier claims that she "can always detect medical information at any time and it requires no effort from me, and so far the information has always been correct". But consistency, as we've seen, has never been her strong point.

Oh: And no comment on why you don't want to do a gas-identification test, Anita? I notice you have delicately tip-toed around your previous claims to be able to identify gas inside metal cylinders every time we've brought them up!
 

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