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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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...The first part of that chain is that the bible says that prophecy is a gift from God. Again, you are saying the events in the NT are true because of something else written in the bible, this time the OT. That is circular reasoning...

Actually Paul in the N.T. was the one who said prophecy was a gift of the Holy Spirit.

And you keep putting words in my mouth, I never said events in the NT are true because of things written in the OT.

And the bible is not the only place that reports some of the facts we talk about. They also appear in Non-Christian sources.

The following facts are from Geisler's book (pg. 223) cited in post # 1 of this thread. All of the following facts were derived collectively from the 10 "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

ETA: Actually I haven't been able to verify #8 above yet. Phlegon talked about darkness and there was some talk of an eclipse but Origen disagreed with him that it was a solar eclipse. It's a little confusing. And the timeline of the eclipse is not clear.
 
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We have explained to you how bad or lacking in credibility these references were.

You can pretend they are not all you want if it bolster you insecure little faith, but stop repeating them. We explained we did not think them valid and why. Repeating it is a waste of everybody's time.
 
Actually Paul in the N.T. was the one who said prophecy was a gift of the Holy Spirit.
I doubt that was the first time it was claimed prophecy was from god, but I can't check right now.

And you keep putting words in my mouth, I never said events in the NT are true because of things written in the OT.
Really?
Prophecy is a gift from God according to the bible. It is significant because it tells us Christ is who he said he was- the Son of God and the Messiah.
 
Actually Paul in the N.T. was the one who said prophecy was a gift of the Holy Spirit.
So? That just makes him wrong.
And the bible is not the only place that reports some of the facts we talk about. They also appear in Non-Christian sources.

The following facts are from Geisler's book (pg. 223) cited in post # 1 of this thread. All of the following facts were derived collectively from the 10 "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.
No. They are reported as beliefs of Christians and hearsay. No eyewitness testimony at all, not even in the Bible. More lies DOC?

But I"ll play your game:
1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.
Really? YOU claim he lived 100BCE by using the "Jewish" Talmud. But sure. I'll accept this
2) He lived a virtuous life.
Sure. So? But sure. I'll accept this
3) He was a wonder worker.
No. No evidence but heresay and misquotes. No. It is CLAIMED he was a wonder worker.
4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.
Or uncle or pet dog. So what? But sure. I'll accept this
5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.
Completely false. The Jews disagree.But sure. I'll accept this
6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
Sure. So?But sure. I'll accept this
7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.
Sure. So?But sure. I'll accept this
8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.
Let's say it happened. So what? But sure. I'll accept this
9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.
So?But sure. I'll accept this
10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.
So?But sure. I'll accept this
11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.
So?But sure. I'll accept this
12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.
False. Early Christians did not believe Jesus to be god. But sure. I'll accept this

So DOC, I'm completely willing to accept 9 of 10 of your so-called factoids from Non-Christian sources as 100% true. So?
 
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9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.


Which, of course, isn't evidence that such a thing happened. You have been told this before and continue to cling, limpet-like, to facts that are not evidence. Oddly enough, when facts of similar nature are presented for other beliefs, you correctly reject those. It is simply fascinating how you hold these to a completely different standard.
 
1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

This seems fairly clear. I don't see a reason to doubt Tacitus on this.


2) He lived a virtuous life.

There is no evidence of this aside from the Testimonium Flavium -- see below. Sure, it's possible, but again, this is heresay evidence.

3) He was a wonder worker.

The only extra-biblical evidence of this that I know is Josephus in the Testimonium Flavium. This reference is considered by most scholars to be a latter insertion. It certainly makes no sense for Josephus to say most of what is in that passage since he was not a Christian but an observant Jew. Regardless, this is heresay evidence at best since Josephus was not a witness.


4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.

If you're going to play the game, then you must stick by the rules. This comes from Josephus. He does not say cousin. He says brother. The reference is debated, but I accept as likely correct. Keep in mind that Josephus, in this case, was working from heresay evidence. So this is heresay at best.


5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.


Again, from Josephus. Maybe it was an interpolation into Josephus, maybe he wrote it himself. Since Josephus considered Vespasian "Messiah" it is doubtful that he would permit such a claim to go without comment, but he does not seem to comment on it in the relevant passage -- so this is a no go.


6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

No reason to doubt this one either. Tacitus is not unimpeachable, but I buy it.


7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

Where does this come from? I'm not aware of a first or very early second century source that claims this. It may not even be true if some analyses of the gospels themselves are correct.


8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

There is no extra-biblical non-Christian evidence of this. Provide some actual evidence or retract it. An eclipse occurring in the general vicinity is not evidence that such things occurred when he died. This is a very specific claim that requires specific evidence.


9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

Sure. That seems pretty evident.


10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

We are not so sure of this, especially not from extrabiblical sources. Unless you are referring to Christian extra-biblical sources. If you refer to these, then that reference carries consequences. Are we to accept everything that Christians wrote about Jesus?

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

Sure. It spread further. What possible difference does that make. I don't think anyone doubts that Christianity was the dominant religion in the Medieval period in Europe.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Again, so what? We know what other people thought about Jesus. I thought this was supposed to be about evidence for why the NT writers wrote the truth about him, not what other people thought.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

No, actually not all those "facts" can be found in 'non-Christian' sources.
 
Actually Paul in the N.T. was the one who said prophecy was a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Now I've had time to think about this, you really don't know much about the bible, do you?

Paul may well have said that, but it was not at all clear that's what you were referring to (especially since you originally referred to god rather than the holy ghost), and the OT is full of prophecies that are supposed to be from god. The implication of your statement is that Paul was the one and only person to say this, and it's clearly not true. Are you big enough to admit when you're wrong?
 
Which, of course, isn't evidence that such a thing happened. You have been told this before and continue to cling, limpet-like, to facts that are not evidence. Oddly enough, when facts of similar nature are presented for other beliefs, you correctly reject those. It is simply fascinating how you hold these to a completely different standard.

Great, now I'll always have a mental image of Don Knotts when I read DOC's posts.
 
From the site you linked:




Ah, hearsay.

Unless something is on video tape all historians who write of events they didn't witness are writing hearsay. In other words every college professor today who decides to write a book about something before the invention of film and photography is writing hearsay.
 
Unless something is on video tape all historians who write of events they didn't witness are writing hearsay. In other words every college professor today who decides to write a book about something before the invention of film and photography is writing hearsay.
So you have no idea what hearsay is?
 
Unless something is on video tape all historians who write of events they didn't witness are writing hearsay. In other words every college professor today who decides to write a book about something before the invention of film and photography is writing hearsay.

So you have no idea what hearsay is?

Another unexplained post.
 
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