Split Thread General astrology discussion with Astro Teacher

[AvalonXQ]

Not necessarily. Just as there are different kinds of doctors, and specialists, so there are different kinds of astrologers. They will look at your transits from their own specialty, according to your needs.

If another expert can take the exact same data than you can, get totally opposite answers, and there's no objective way to tell which of the two of you I should listen to, I'm not very happy.

 

[Astro Teacher]

Can you give some examples of these direct observations that are so convincing to you - and how they relate to giving astrological advice?

The growth of plants, the climate and weather, and events in history that correlate to past world transits... all this showed me that the ancients were right.

As for personal transits, years ago I once had a client come to me who said that he lost his keys while swimming at the beach. I asked him when this happened, where he went, and who was with him. I run time cycle charts on these dates against his own transits. I saw positions in his own personal transits relative to the present geographical transits that indicated that his keys were stolen from him by a person he knew.

I will not go into detail here about how I knew this because it is quite advanced, but the method is one that has been around for a long time and is known by experienced astrologers.

I triangulated his transits into the near future, running them into the days and weeks relative to his geographical position and told him that the person he knew would attempt to enter his apartment at a specific time and date when he thought his friend was not home.

Because he was scared, I helped him out by changing the geographic direction of observation of his apartment and waiting for a person to show up at the eastern position I noted.

The person, his friend, showed up, at night at the time and date I forecasted, and watched his friend's apartment. We were right behind him. He jumped when we confronted him, so we cornered him, asked him what he was doing there so late at night, and checked his pockets. My client found his keys. The guy was scared out of his wits and we told him that we were watching him watching his friend's apartment.

 

[AvalonXQ]

The growth of plants, the climate and weather, and events in history that correlate to past world transits... all this showed me that the ancients were right.

As for personal transits, years ago I once had a client come to me who said that he lost his keys while swimming at the beach. I asked him when this happened, where he went, and who was with him. I run time cycle charts on these dates against his own transits. I saw positions in his own personal transits relative to the present geographical transits that indicated that his keys were stolen from him by a person he knew.

I will not go into detail here about how I knew this because it is quite advanced, but the method is one that has been around for a long time and is known by experienced astrologers.

I triangulated his transits into the near future, running them into the days and weeks relative to his geographical position and told him that the person he knew would attempt to enter his apartment at a specific time and date when he thought his friend was not home.

Because he was scared, I helped him out by changing the geographic direction of observation of his apartment and waiting for a person to show up at the eastern position I noted.

The person, his friend, showed up, at night at the time and date I forecasted, and watched his friend's apartment. We were right behind him. He jumped when we confronted him, so we cornered him, asked him what he was doing there so late at night, and checked his pockets. My client found his keys. The guy was scared out of his wits and we told him that we were watching him watching his friend's apartment.

That's a pretty amazing story.
If you can consistently do things like this, why do you insist that there's no way to test your power? Surely if you can figure out what you described above, you can determine objectively identifiable information that a person already knows well enough to be tested.

 

[Astro Teacher]

If another expert can take the exact same data than you can, get totally opposite answers, and there's no objective way to tell which of the two of you I should listen to, I'm not very happy.

Listen, you are going to get two different answers from many people on the same question in anything you ask. What's the problem? It is for you to make the choice about whom to listen to pal. You have free will, and there are no easy answers for how to live your own life. You can educate yourself to the point of knowing who is apt to give you better solutions and answers to your questions/dilemmas, etc., than who is not.

This is not about "prediction" - this is about forecasting. Objectivity means different things to different people. Sure, get the best you can from whomever you might think can get you closer to what you want, or need, but, in the end you are going to have to make the decision. That means thinking for yourself at some time in the process. That's life and we all have to deal with this fact of life.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Listen, you are going to get two different answers from many people on the same question in anything you ask. What's the problem? It is for you to make the choice about whom to listen to pal. You have free will, and there are no easy answers for how to live your own life. You can educate yourself to the point of knowing who is apt to give you better solutions and answers to your questions/dilemmas, etc., than who is not.

Right. And the way to do this is through outcome-based objective testing. "Right" and "wrong" is not a matter of personal choice; it's a matter of record.
If a meteorologist claims to be able to forecast the weather, I can give him data from the past, have him give me forecasts based on that data, and compare what he says against the known facts (the actual weather) to see whether there's anything to his claims.
Could you use your techniques to forecast the past in the same way you forecast the future? If so, couldn't we find a way to test whether or not your forecasts are more accurate than chance would predict?

 

[Astro Teacher]

That's a pretty amazing story.
If you can consistently do things like this, why do you insist that there's no way to test your power? Surely if you can figure out what you described above, you can determine objectively identifiable information that a person already knows well enough to be tested.

Because it is something only advanced astrologers would know is true. How am I to prove that I saw that transiting Mars was going to rise at that particular location at that particular time on the eastern horizon, and that this symbolized the individual who was up to no good?

The client didn't care how I did this, he just wanted his keys back, but he didn't know that his friend had stolen his keys and wanted to rip him off. I knew this, but how to prove it unless we were actually there at that particular time and place?

The client could have listened to his girlfriend who wanted him to spend the night at her place, if not for his astrologer saying no, we have to be here at this particular time and place and then wait.

See the problem of testing? It was the client's choice to tell his girlfriend that he could not stay with her that night (which led her to believe that he was cheating until I had to impress upon her that he was not and needed to be with me at this particular time) and so he made a free will choice. Now, if he decided to say hell no and go and stay at his girlfriend's place that night, he would have been ripped off.

Things often work like this. It is all about choices and decisions on the individual's part. But the transits, the "climate" is still there nonetheless. Transits are always on time - all the time. Most of the problems in the world come directly from people's own ignorance to transits and the poor choices and decisions they make.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

The growth of plants, the climate and weather, and events in history that correlate to past world transits... all this showed me that the ancients were right.

If these past correlations are so strong, why can't you predict classes of future events that will correlate with certain astrological features. Or is it the case that you can't tell what kind of events will be relevant until afterwards (postdiction).

 

[AvalonXQ]

Because it is something only advanced astrologers would know is true. How am I to prove that I saw that transiting Mars was going to rise at that particular location at that particular time on the eastern horizon, and that this symbolized the individual who was up to no good?

The client didn't care how I did this, he just wanted his keys back, but he didn't know that his friend had stolen his keys and wanted to rip him off. I knew this, but how to prove it unless we were actually there at that particular time and place?

You answered your own question. Your friend cared about getting his keys back; you provided evidence that your practices were accurate by describing exactly what turned out to be true.
It doesn't require advanced astrological knowledge to verify whether or not my friend stole my keys.
Certainly if the transits can predict that, there's something more mundane they can predict -- like what sort of car someone drives, or when their last hair cut was. Something testable.

 

[Astro Teacher]

Right. And the way to do this is through outcome-based objective testing. "Right" and "wrong" is not a matter of personal choice; it's a matter of record.
If a meteorologist claims to be able to forecast the weather, I can give him data from the past, have him give me forecasts based on that data, and compare what he says against the known facts (the actual weather) to see whether there's anything to his claims.
Could you use your techniques to forecast the past in the same way you forecast the future? If so, couldn't we find a way to test whether or not your forecasts are more accurate than chance would predict?

You can do this with long-range weather forecasting, which can be tested. This has been done before, and found to be accurate. This is Natural Astrology, the one area that I believe that astrology can be tested because we can see the percentage rates of accuracy and non-accuracy in the physical world.

When it comes to natal astrology - no way. Only the people themselves can say if they "believe" that they have been helped or not, and there is no way to measure if this is true or not. People can say sure, or they can be embarrassed and lie about it because it involves astrology. How can you measure that?

 

[AvalonXQ]

When it comes to natal astrology - no way. Only the people themselves can say if they "believe" that they have been helped or not, and there is no way to measure if this is true or not. People can say sure, or they can be embarrassed and lie about it because it involves astrology. How can you measure that?

If you can predict easy-to-determine things, like gender or automobile type or career choice, then we don't have to depend on the person to judge whether or not they were "helped".
And, again, if astrology can actually forecast anything real, there is some way to test it.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

You can do this with long-range weather forecasting, which can be tested. This has been done before, and found to be accurate.

Can you provide us with evidence that astrological forecasting of weather has been found to be accurate?

 

[Nonpareil]

When it comes to natal astrology - no way. Only the people themselves can say if they "believe" that they have been helped or not, and there is no way to measure if this is true or not. People can say sure, or they can be embarrassed and lie about it because it involves astrology. How can you measure that?

So you don't make predictions. You write fortune cookies.

 

[SumDood]

Because it is something only advanced astrologers would know is true. How am I to prove that I saw that transiting Mars was going to rise at that particular location at that particular time on the eastern horizon, and that this symbolized the individual who was up to no good?

The client didn't care how I did this, he just wanted his keys back, but he didn't know that his friend had stolen his keys and wanted to rip him off. I knew this, but how to prove it unless we were actually there at that particular time and place?

The client could have listened to his girlfriend who wanted him to spend the night at her place, if not for his astrologer saying no, we have to be here at this particular time and place and then wait.

See the problem of testing? It was the client's choice to tell his girlfriend that he could not stay with her that night (which led her to believe that he was cheating until I had to impress upon her that he was not and needed to be with me at this particular time) and so he made a free will choice. Now, if he decided to say hell no and go and stay at his girlfriend's place that night, he would have been ripped off. Is this the only prediction you have ever made?

Things often work like this. It is all about choices and decisions on the individual's part. But the transits, the "climate" is still there nonetheless. Transits are always on time - all the time. Most of the problems in the world come directly from people's own ignorance to transits and the poor choices and decisions they make.

How you do it or what the client's choices were are not important to a test. You said you knew the thief would show up to a specific place at a specific time. That is a prediction that can be easily tested. That's exactly what you guys did. You went to the apartment and waited. Had no one showed up, the prediction would have been proven false. Since the thief did show up, the prediction was proven true. Is this the only prediction you have ever made? If you make specific predictions such as this one, they can easily be tested.

 

[Neally]

Astrology has never been disproven. What we find today are little more than opinions built on preconceived biases by those with no knowledge of the subject itself.

Astrology has conclusively been disproven by way of the studies I previously cited. Since there is no astrologer among the many that have participated in controlled tests has been successful, it can be said that that astrology itself is disproven since there are no astrologers that can make it work.

Real Astrology does not work like this. I continue to make this point. Most people falsely believe that the whole purpose of an "astrology reading" is to tell the person something about themselves. This is not true, and any so-called "astrologer" who says so is not a true astrologer.

You are conveniently redefining the field according to your biases. All the astrologers that have participated in studies or have made predictions used in studies have defined themselves as "true" astrologers, following the principles of astrology. You conveniently have chosen to redefine the field in a way that you claim makes it impossible to even objectively test the validity. Further you state that so called natural astrology can make objective predictions, but people that make them are not true astrologers.

 

[Astro Teacher]

How you do it or what the client's choices were are not important to a test. You said you knew the thief would show up to a specific place at a specific time. That is a prediction that can be easily tested. That's exactly what you guys did. You went to the apartment and waited. Had no one showed up, the prediction would have been proven false. Since the thief did show up, the prediction was proven true. Is this the only prediction you have ever made? If you make specific predictions such as this one, they can easily be tested.

No, try not to see it that way. It was "tested" by the actions of the person who stole my client's keys in that climate. The transits show what the "inclinations" are, and there was a range of times and dates over a period of time that indicated to me that this was what was going on. Only my experience and knowledge of transits narrowed that range down enough to see if this was indeed the potential, and, it was.

You can be right, and still be wrong, and can be wrong and still be right. There are nuances and complexities of astrological forecasting that cannot be debated akin to some of the "pro wrestling comments" from some seen on this subject. I am always amazed at how some skeptics seem to think that they alone have Carte Blanche on what constitutes "truth" and "evidence" when many times the "truth" is staring them in the face.

The only problem with this is that some skeptics are not knowledgeable about the subjects to be expert enough to see some truths because to them there is only material in the world that must show all to be true relevant to their own present limited senses of what constitutes truth. In effect, they are thinking "inside the box" - not out of it, and in order to understand, and explore the nuances and complexities of the world one must think outside of the box.

 

[Astro Teacher]

Astrology has conclusively been disproven by way of the studies I previously cited. Since there is no astrologer among the many that have participated in controlled tests has been successful, it can be said that that astrology itself is disproven since there are no astrologers that can make it work.


You are conveniently redefining the field according to your biases. All the astrologers that have participated in studies or have made predictions used in studies have defined themselves as "true" astrologers, following the principles of astrology. You conveniently have chosen to redefine the field in a way that you claim makes it impossible to even objectively test the validity. Further you state that so called natural astrology can make objective predictions, but people that make them are not true astrologers.

I cannot speak for them. I can speak for myself. I have redefined nothing. I am restating matters on this topic that have been said many, many times before.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Listen, you are going to get two different answers from many people on the same question in anything you ask.

This has not been my actual experience regarding questions about objective facts. In matters of objectivity in which the persons queried possesses actual knowledge of the subject I am likely to get similar, if not identical answers. If I ask two chemistry professors about the second law of thermodynamics they will give me the same answer. Fire burns flesh and anyone who says otherwise is a fool.

However, I've found that widely varied, even mutually exclusive answers are the norm in subjective or imaginary situations because there is no objective answer.

If there is any objective truth to your claims you should be able to demonstrate it.

 

[Hokulele]

I have not yet heard back from the moderating team (they do have lives outside the forum), so I will give them another day. If I have not heard from them by this time tomorrow, I will start an open thread for Astro Teacher's test and hope we can keep the crosstalk down to a minimum.

If anyone wants to volunteer as subjects for this, please notify me by PM.

Please do not post anything regarding your participation in this test publically.

 

[Neally]

I cannot speak for them. I can speak for myself. I have redefined nothing. I am restating matters on this topic that have been said many, many times before.

In fact you have spoken for them. You have essentially called all astrologers that do what we all know as "predictions", frauds, and science agrees with you. All their claims have been disproven, and thereby the field of astrology itself.

 

[Nonpareil]

No, try not to see it that way. It was "tested" by the actions of the person who stole my client's keys in that climate. The transits show what the "inclinations" are, and there was a range of times and dates over a period of time that indicated to me that this was what was going on. Only my experience and knowledge of transits narrowed that range down enough to see if this was indeed the potential, and, it was.

You can be right, and still be wrong, and can be wrong and still be right. There are nuances and complexities of astrological forecasting that cannot be debated akin to some of the "pro wrestling comments" from some seen on this subject. I am always amazed at how some skeptics seem to think that they alone have Carte Blanche on what constitutes "truth" and "evidence" when many times the "truth" is staring them in the face.

The only problem with this is that some skeptics are not knowledgeable about the subjects to be expert enough to see some truths because to them there is only material in the world that must show all to be true relevant to their own present limited senses of what constitutes truth. In effect, they are thinking "inside the box" - not out of it, and in order to understand, and explore the nuances and complexities of the world one must think outside of the box.

Okay, guys, I think I've figured out what Astro Teacher is trying to say here.

Astrology, according to AT, doesn't deal in predictions. It deals in chances. Essentially, you go to AT, AT says "Hey, this may happen".
It's a very handy system for AT, because he/she is never straight-up wrong. If it DOES happen, then "wow, you're amazing!" If it doesn't, then "well, he said that it only MIGHT happen, so I guess he was right that it might not!"
While it's impossible to disprove, it's also quite a dishonest way of thinking.