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Split Thread General astrology discussion with Astro Teacher

First: Can we all agree that electromagnetism is omnipresent throughout the universe?
Yes
B) That resonance phenomena is a wave phenomena not exclusive to electromagnetic phenomena?
Yes, all sorts of oscillating systems can resonate. <nitpick> phenomenon in the singular.</nitpick>
C) That all atoms, quarks and living organisms utilize EM fields as a kind of messenger medium, relaying some type of interaction?
Umm. Well, that's a huge sweep, and it's bit vague. Fair comment up to a point. So it depends what you mean, which we shall doubtless discover.
 
I've moved some posts here from the moderated thead. Apologies if the mixing of the posts makes it difficult to follow.
Posted By: Professor Yaffle
 
.

I never said you can't tell the difference between dying of childhood disease or in octag-bliss. I said (in previous threads) I don't believe in predicting death. I also said that if an astrologer does look for death in the chart, that they (meaning me if I were doing it) would want to see death corroborated in the charts of the subject's sons, daughters, mother and father, etc.


Just a thought.
Okay. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth; I'm explaining what I get out of what you have said. This bit helps. Let me step back a moment and restate what I understand you to be saying in as clear a manner as I can. Please correct me where I'm wrong.

1. You do not predict death using astrology, but you could if you chose to

2. Anyone using astrology to predict death can do so

3. Any such prediction would have more reliability if corroborated with astrological readings of family members

Before I ask more questions, I'll let you comment on whether I am understanding you correctly.
 
YesYes, all sorts of oscillating systems can resonate. <nitpick> phenomenon in the singular.</nitpick>Umm. Well, that's a huge sweep, and it's bit vague. Fair comment up to a point. So it depends what you mean, which we shall doubtless discover.

Please explain to me why it's a huge sweep. :confused:

Sorry the link I provided seems not to work. Strange. I bookmarked the page and it works fine for me . . . The bit I quoted, "Solar and lunar daily geomagnetic variations provide the basic scientific material for electromagnetic sounding of the Earth . . ." is from CSIRO Publishing, The Bulletin of the Australian Society of Exploration. Geophyscists Explorations Geophysics 24(2) 147 - 150. D.E. Winch is the author.

The reason I bring this up is to establish that earth's magnetosphere contains variations known to geophysicists, called the solar and lunar daily magnetic variations. These geomagnetic variations can be measured by scientists and correspond to planetary cycles, i.e., correlate with the Sun and Moon.

Garrrette:
1. correct
2. No. Not anyone. Predicting death years in advance, prior to any physical symptoms, if it's even possible, would be/is very,very difficult. I for one do not believe our fate is "written in the stars." For many reasons; for one, the stars and planets are not static but dynamic. If the stars and planets are dynamic, change and evolve, then so also must fate (whatever that is).

As well, if astrology works the way most astrologers argue that it does, it must include not only planets in our own solar system, but all of the stars and planets in the whole universe. This means that, in plotting the course of a person's life, i.e., making predictions, an astrologer would have to interpret zillions of astronomical factors. This is another reason why I gave it up as a profession: No astrologer can hope to make consistently accurate predictions.

I realize that this comment makes neither skeptic nor Chester and other astrologers happy. But that's the way I see and understand it at this time.

At best, the astrologer sees planetary propensities for giving birth and/or dying. A propensity is not written in concrete.

3. Correct
 
Please explain to me why it's a huge sweep. :confused:

Sorry the link I provided seems not to work. Strange. I bookmarked the page and it works fine for me . . . The bit I quoted, "Solar and lunar daily geomagnetic variations provide the basic scientific material for electromagnetic sounding of the Earth . . ." is from CSIRO Publishing, The Bulletin of the Australian Society of Exploration. Geophyscists Explorations Geophysics 24(2) 147 - 150. D.E. Winch is the author.

The reason I bring this up is to establish that earth's magnetosphere contains variations known to geophysicists, called the solar and lunar daily magnetic variations. These geomagnetic variations can be measured by scientists and correspond to planetary cycles, i.e., correlate with the Sun and Moon.


<snip>


Does that help identify the problem for you?

You are extrapolating in circles. Messy.
 
Please explain to me why it's a huge sweep. :confused:

Normally, a physicist would have some math to go along with such claims.

....
The reason I bring this up is to establish that earth's magnetosphere contains variations known to geophysicists, called the solar and lunar daily magnetic variations. These geomagnetic variations can be measured by scientists and correspond to planetary cycles, i.e., correlate with the Sun and Moon.
Another broad sweep, because such variations have not been shown to affect the personality or genetic makeup of newborns.

As well, if astrology works the way most astrologers argue that it does, it must include not only planets in our own solar system, but all of the stars and planets in the whole universe. This means that, in plotting the course of a person's life, i.e., making predictions, an astrologer would have to interpret zillions of astronomical factors. This is another reason why I gave it up as a profession: No astrologer can hope to make consistently accurate predictions.
Welcome to the skeptical community! Just one more step, let's make it "zillions and zillions". Then, what is the point of astrology?
 
Bronwyn:

Your responses confuse me.

You agree that it is possible with astrology to predict someone's death, albeit only by those most experienced. Yet you also say nothing can be predicted with consistent accuracy. You also say that using relatives' charts in a group will allow more accuracy (I'm extrapolating a bit from your response).

Let's assume an astrologer with the highest knowledge and greatest experience.

What can be predicted with just one person's chart, and with what accuracy (and consistency?)

What more can be predicted with the family's charts, and with what accuracy and consistency?

If it is just propensities, then how does astrology differ from what is offered by a reasonably sensitive, insightful, and experienced counselor?
 
RE: solar and lunar daily geomagnetic variations go to:

http://www.publish.csiro.au/paper/EG993147.html

Q: Solar and lunar daily geomagnetic variations provide the basic scientific material for electromagnetic sounding of the earth . . . variations also provide information on the upper atmosphere . . . which give rise to the ionospheric dynamo . . .

If HARRP inadverdantly alters this delicate ionospheric dynamo, who knows what effects it may wreak on the natural GMF, not mention the weather. I would suggest that the solar-planetary-intergalactic-terrestrial 'magnetic complex' is connected like a web, more intricately interactive and interdependent than present science can accurately measure.

If all subspace, as Dr. Seymour suggests in his latest book, Dark Matters, is permeated by "electrified tunnels," then literally every speck of the universe, including our electrified brains and bodies, has at least the potential to respond to resonance phenomena. I'm not saying it's true, or that it is the physical mechanism by which astrology operates. Only that it's possible that resonance phenomena may play a role. I'm agnostic on how astrology may work -- I don't know. (yes, yes, I know you believe that it does not work, period.)

Resonance:

"In physics, resonance is the tendency of a system to oscillate at larger amplitude at some frequencies than at others. These are known as the system's resonant frequencies (or resonance frequencies)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance

What frequencies does this resonance phenomenon take place and what medium is resonating?
 
Bronwyn:

Your responses confuse me.

You agree that it is possible with astrology to predict someone's death, albeit only by those most experienced. Yet you also say nothing can be predicted with consistent accuracy. You also say that using relatives' charts in a group will allow more accuracy (I'm extrapolating a bit from your response).

Let's assume an astrologer with the highest knowledge and greatest experience.

What can be predicted with just one person's chart, and with what accuracy (and consistency?)

What more can be predicted with the family's charts, and with what accuracy and consistency?

If it is just propensities, then how does astrology differ from what is offered by a reasonably sensitive, insightful, and experienced counselor?


One person's chart often accurately predicts how that person feels, sees and interprets the world. It describes how they feel/see things from the inside. Their attitude toward, say, science or mysticism, their love of food or sports (or lack thereof), their emotional make-up (extremely jealous or possessive, etc.), how they experienced their parents (perception of parents), and very often their innate talents.

If, say, certain factors are present, one can say, You are likely fascinated by or have a talent in the study of physics . . . or, in occult studies. You have probably been labeled an eccentric by friends, family and those with whom you work; you likely live the life of a hermit, or whatever. You've gone through several different types of jobs and find it difficult to stick to any one profession. You may have experienced your father as being absent in some way, either physically or psychologically, or as cold and cruel, etc. You may undergo a difficult period with your boss or with finances, during the period Aug 2 through Oct 3, or whatever.
This is a small example of one's horoscope may reveal to an experienced astrologer. But I am not an expert.

As for what can been seen 'coming down the pipe' through family charts, I would think one could predict some things. Like a death in the family, for instance. I haven't done this type of speculation, but, according to the principles of astrology, this ought to be so.

I'm not sure an astrological consultation is essentially much different from that given by a good counselor. The main difference might be, I suppose, that the client walks away feeling as though they, too, are somehow intimately connected to the far-flung planets. That their lives have meaning in relation to the stars and all of nature.

For some types, this feeling of interconnectedness with the universe is very comforting, inspiring and hopeful.

Not much worth to skeptics, I know. But to some, the beauty of feeling connected to the universe is simply enough. It's not that astrologers don't care whether science validates their art, btw.

Believe me when I say that I'm disappointed with the majority of astrological predictions. That's why I very seldom use it that way; I don't really see the value of it. Though do I admit to buying lotto tickets when I think cycles are most favorable. So far I'm just slightly ahead in the number of wins; unfortunately, all of those wins have been small. Too bad -- now that would be a practical use of astrology.
 
Please explain to me why it's a huge sweep. :confused:

Sure, no problem: Electromagnetism drives just about everything above the quantum scale which isn't driven by gravity. Chemistry, for example, is electromagnetic in nature, as it's what binds electrons to nuclei and forms chemical bonds in molecules. So anything made from atoms utilizes electromagnetism, in that way at least. On the other hand, "all... living organisms utilize EM fields as a kind of messenger medium" set my anthropomorphism alarm tingling and "relaying some type of interaction" triggered a handwaving alert as it's not obvious exactly what that means.

Electromagnetic fields are busiest working at the atomic level, but I suspect you're considering interactions at an interplanetary scale, which is rather getting into gravity's domain. Sure, electromagnetic radiation can convey information across interplanetary distances easily, but I don't know if that's what you're hinting at. Hence my slight reserve, waiting to see where we're going.
 
Thank you, Jack. I like your explanation and frank questions.

My computer is tuned to this site.

I'm off to the pub with friends, however. :D

Best,
Bronwyn
 
One person's chart often accurately predicts how that person feels, sees and interprets the world. It describes how they feel/see things from the inside. Their attitude toward, say, science or mysticism, their love of food or sports (or lack thereof), their emotional make-up (extremely jealous or possessive, etc.), how they experienced their parents (perception of parents), and very often their innate talents.
If you could show that to be true, you could have a million dollars to contribute to your favorite cause. I doubt that you can, but I'm willing to be convinced. At least you've offered to be tested and for that, I respect you.

I'm not sure an astrological consultation is essentially much different from that given by a good counselor. The main difference might be, I suppose, that the client walks away feeling as though they, too, are somehow intimately connected to the far-flung planets. That their lives have meaning in relation to the stars and all of nature.
I imagine it is not. Counsellors may use word association or other tools to get a person to talk. I don't have any problem seeing astrology used like a Rorschak test, I just don't want it to be touted as any kind of predictive tool.

For some types, this feeling of interconnectedness with the universe is very comforting, inspiring and hopeful.

Not much worth to skeptics, I know. But to some, the beauty of feeling connected to the universe is simply enough. It's not that astrologers don't care whether science validates their art, btw.
I studied Astrology in my youth. I found it inspiring in some ways. I actually got a date with a gorgeous babe because I predicted her sign. (Lucky, but what the hay.) But yes, if feeling good about your "connection to the universe" is important, then that's not of itself a bad thing. But it doesn't matter if it's astrology or I Ching or reading entrails, as long as it makes you feel good. Believing paranormal things gives a lot of people comfort. The problem is that sometimes they value that comfort over reality, and ignoring reality in favor of comfort is not a good thing, IMO. Some people are able to make sure that their paranormal beliefs don't overshadow evidence and science. Sadly, many aren't. They are prey for the huxters, and their gullibility is fed and abetted by honest, thoughtful and sincere believers who convince them that such things are true. Even if they aren't themselves frauds, they are creating victims for fraud. I find that in itself a bit immoral.

Believe me when I say that I'm disappointed with the majority of astrological predictions. That's why I very seldom use it that way; I don't really see the value of it. Though do I admit to buying lotto tickets when I think cycles are most favorable. So far I'm just slightly ahead in the number of wins; unfortunately, all of those wins have been small. Too bad -- now that would be a practical use of astrology.
If astrology were even slightly useful in predicting favorable cycles, lotteries would be bankrupt.
 
Bronwyn,

Thank you for the response. As I'm short on time, I'll just nod to Tricky's comments and say I am in agreement with them. I have some thoughts to add later when I find the time but have to bow out for now.
 
Sure, no problem: Electromagnetism drives just about everything above the quantum scale which isn't driven by gravity."


Only above the quantum level? Are there not "quantum electrodynamics?"


Chemistry, for example, is electromagnetic in nature, as it's what binds electrons to nuclei and forms chemical bonds in molecules. So anything made from atoms utilizes electromagnetism, in that way at least. On the other hand, "all... living organisms utilize EM fields as a kind of messenger medium" set my anthropomorphism alarm tingling and "relaying some type of interaction" triggered a handwaving alert as it's not obvious exactly what that means."

But all living organisms do use EM fields, via celluar activity, neurons, in nerves and even the heart itself. Yes? I call EM a messenger medium because it transmits information throughout our brains and organs, nervous system, etc. Solar emissions and galactic cosmic ray particles also 'transmit" information to earth's magnetosphere, where they may be picked up by the neural network of living creatures.

From the 1998 interview with Dr. Seymour (Magus of Magnetism, B. Elko)

I asked Seymour: Your theory draws upon research into the biological consequences of fluctuations in Earth's magnetosphere. How did this research impact the formulation of your theory?


Seymour's answer was long. Here is a part of what he said.

"Research in magnetobiology shows that a wide variety of organisms respond to changes in Earth's magnetic field. For instance, Franck Brown of Northwestern University, who has done much work in this area, showed how mudsnails and turtles followed the lunar daily magnetic variastion even when these creatures were removed from the sea and lodged inside laboratory tanks. The experiments of Dr. Robin Baker of Manchester University suggest that humans are also sensitive to changes in Earth's magnetic field. Baker first placed people inside a darkened room and asked them to locate North. Most of the time people got it right. But when Baker then fitted these same subjects with a little magnetic skullcap, they lost their ability to find North. this strongly suggests the persence of an internal compass or biological clock. . . What I think might be happening is that the fetus's neural network acts as a sort of antenna that tunes into fluctuations in Earth's magnetic field. The imprinting of the neural antennae depends on genetic heredity, which gives us our basic congenital personality." (p.25, The Mountain Astrologer, Issue #80)

NASA's Magnetospheric Multiscale Mission (MMS), approved for implementation in June of this year, will hopefully provide more information re: the number and types of frequencies contained in Earth's magnetosphere.

As well, one look at the explosive process known as 'Magnetic Reconnection' suggests to me that all earthlings live inside a constantly changing, highly charged magnetic bottle. What this means for astrology, if anything, remains to be seen.
 
If you could show that to be true, you could have a million dollars to contribute to your favorite cause. I doubt that you can, but I'm willing to be convinced. At least you've offered to be tested and for that, I respect you."

Sorry, but you misunderstood what I said: I am not offering to be tested. Not only because it would take a big chunk of my time, but because I no longer practice astrology (I cast one chart a month, when I buy a lotto ticket.) I have been retired from astrology for eight years.


I studied Astrology in my youth. I found it inspiring in some ways. I actually got a date with a gorgeous babe because I predicted her sign. (Lucky, but what the hay.) But yes, if feeling good about your "connection to the universe" is important, then that's not of itself a bad thing. But it doesn't matter if it's astrology or I Ching or reading entrails, as long as it makes you feel good. Believing paranormal things gives a lot of people comfort. The problem is that sometimes they value that comfort over reality, and ignoring reality in favor of comfort is not a good thing, IMO. Some people are able to make sure that their paranormal beliefs don't overshadow evidence and science. Sadly, many aren't. They are prey for the huxters, and their gullibility is fed and abetted by honest, thoughtful and sincere believers who convince them that such things are true. Even if they aren't themselves frauds, they are creating victims for fraud. I find that in itself a bit immoral.

There's truth to what you say. The same could be said of some, so-called doctors who push pills and other questionable procedures. But not everyone uses medicine and/or astrology this way. The right tool in the wrong hands is very dangerous: a knife can slice bread or arteries.

As for astrology and lottos, if I manage to get lucky you'll be the first person to know. :)

PS don't know why the second quote did not work right; no time to fix it -- being summoned by scary yelling from down the hallway . . .
 
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