9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Nick Terry]

Abandoning all hope of argument, we are now treated with an appeal to authority.

Unfortunately, Trojan was not making an appeal to authority but stating a simple fact; the charge that the Nazis exterminated the Jews of Europe was amply proven by multiple jurisdictions and multiple national historiographies over the past sixty years. It is a bit more extensive than Nuremberg + Hilberg, in case you are getting an urge to wheel out one of your many strawmen.

You claimed "it is up to you to prove that these exterminations happened", as if none of these legal investigations or historians had ever existed.

By now, in the year 2009, the Holocaust is an accepted historical fact just like any other; the would-be rewriter of history, i.e. you, now has the burden of proof to come up with a better explanation for the evidence that has come to light over the past 60+ years.

Unfortunately, all your efforts to date have been woefully ignorant of the evidence, of the historiography and indeed of the actual judicial investigations. This is why so many people are laughing at you, and why your childish shaking of your fist saying to us 'prove it!' is so utterly hilarious.

You see, all someone need do is refer you to a virtually endless list of court cases, judicial investigations, works of historiography and so on, and wait for you to read them, since until you, the erstwhile rewriter of history, have done this reasonably comprehensively, then all you are doing is arguing from ignorance.

 

[9/11-investigator]

When this 'authority' is the Nuremberg Trials, it's hard to get much higher really. I don't much feel like redoing them either. The evidence is massed on our side, really.

No trouble with victors justice?

I already thought you would not.

So you want to maintain that the thought is unproblematic that the same people that set out to bomb any civilian they could find, to nuke entire cities, the same people who over the government sponsored radio were encouraging soldiers to rape any German woman they could find, the same people that had run concentration camps themselves and had killed millions, that these people in Nuremberg suddenly morphed into positivistic scientists and honestly came to a fair conclusion about the misdeeds of the Germans.

How naiv (or ethni-centric) can you be?

Nuremberg was a Jewish inspired showtrial in the best stalinist traditions.

 

[Uzzy]

I am going to make a statement here that may be interpreted as a concession, but it is not, really. I think that most of the smarties here will probably agree with me that there is not a shred of evidence that the Nazi-regime had a homicidal policy towards the Jews from the start in the 1920's. They just wanted to get rid of them. I have seen links that people like Eichmann even visited Palestine in 193x in order to try to arrange for the Jews to go there. Another possible Final Destination considered was Madagasqar. Uzzy seems to suggest to go along with that diagnosis for the moment. Then he mentions Stalingrad. The Germans lost the battle for Stalingrad, feb 1943. With hindsight many see that as the turning point of the war, although Stalingrad is situated at the Wolga, way beyond the Ukraine, as far eastern as Tiblisi, Georgia. So a German loss was not even certain at that time and hence no incentive for changing German policy (expulsion) was present. However, if that was German policy indeed, than I cannot rule out as a theoretical possibility that from the moment on that a German defeat became clear to the leadership that a change of policy happened and that they started to exterminate the Jews they had in their custody. Pure from the logic of the situation: "OK, we are going to lose the war you inflicted on us, but we are going to take you with us in the grave". And it is up to you to prove that these exterminations happened, if you think they did happen. But I am rather certain that nothing of the sort happened until at least the first months of 1943, as long as the Germans were in the 'winning mood'.

Leaving aside the Einsatzgruppen, who were shooting unarmed citizens pretty much from the start of the war as part of organised 'purges', I'm glad you accepted some points.

My mention of Stalingrad was not as some sort of 'Turning Point', but rather as an example of the environment on the Eastern Front, where lives were being lost at a horrendous rate. This was happening to, in Nazi eyes, full blooded Aryans. In such an environment, the value of life is quite diminished.

Now, Hitler was a very lazy leader. But still a strong one, as what he said went. But often he would make vague pronouncements to his inner circle, who'd then fight to best please his desires. Unfortunately, those in his inner circle often radicalised their own plans as quickly as they could, thinking this was the best way to please Hitler. Working Towards the Furher was the byword in Nazi policy, with various underlings trying their best to please him in hopes of advancement. Even if all Hitler wanted to do was remove the Jews from Europe by resettling them in the east, it's easy to see how in this environment of a) Slaughter on the Eastern Front devaluing human lives and b) Nazi Government officials wanting to appease Hitler, various people in the government may decide that the main thing Hitler wanted was to remove the Jews. As such, the more radical, racial bloc of the Nazi Party, centred around the SS, would happily have gotten to work removing the Untermensch. Heck, they had already been doing it since the beginning of the war, through the Einsatzgruppen. Now it was just a case of industrialising it.

I personally believe that Hitler himself must have given the order to Himmler, though the lack of evidence for this is slightly troubling.

 

[Nonpareil]

No trouble with victors justice?

I already thought you would not.

So you want to maintain that the thought is unproblematic that the same people that set out to bomb any civilian they could find, to nuke entire cities, the same people who over the government sponsored radio were encouraging soldiers to rape any German woman they could find, the same people that had run concentration camps themselves and had killed millions, that these people in Nuremberg suddenly morphed into positivistic scientists and honestly came to a fair conclusion about the misdeeds of the Germans.

How naiv (or ethni-centric) can you be?

Nuremberg was a Jewish inspired showtrial in the best stalinist traditions.

Guilt by association fallacy.

Fail.

 

[Toke]

9/11-investigator,

Have you considered moving to Turkey?
Denying genocide is quite popular there, you just have to switch from jew to armenian.

 

[carlitos]

are you kidding me?

I am going to make a statement here that may be interpreted as a concession, but it is not, really. I think that most of the smarties here will probably agree with me that there is not a shred of evidence that the Nazi-regime had a homicidal policy towards the Jews from the start in the 1920's. They just wanted to get rid of them. I have seen links that people like Eichmann even visited Palestine in 193x in order to try to arrange for the Jews to go there. Another possible Final Destination considered was Madagasqar. Uzzy seems to suggest to go along with that diagnosis for the moment. Then he mentions Stalingrad. The Germans lost the battle for Stalingrad, feb 1943. With hindsight many see that as the turning point of the war, although Stalingrad is situated at the Wolga, way beyond the Ukraine, as far eastern as Tiblisi, Georgia. So a German loss was not even certain at that time and hence no incentive for changing German policy (expulsion) was present. However, if that was German policy indeed, than I cannot rule out as a theoretical possibility that from the moment on that a German defeat became clear to the leadership that a change of policy happened and that they started to exterminate the Jews they had in their custody. Pure from the logic of the situation: "OK, we are going to lose the war you inflicted on us, but we are going to take you with us in the grave". And it is up to you to prove that these exterminations happened, if you think they did happen. But I am rather certain that nothing of the sort happened until at least the first months of 1943, as long as the Germans were in the 'winning mood'.

Jews inflicted the war on Germany? Please explain how they did this.

Not for the tenth time. See page 3.

I see no reference to DECEMBER diary entry by Goebbels on page 3.

Bezüglich der Judenfrage ist der Führer entschlossen, reinen Tisch zu machen. Er hat den Juden prophezeit, daß, wenn sie noch einmal einen Weltkrieg herbeiführen würden, sie dabei ihre Vernichtung erleben würden. Das ist keine Phrase gewesen. Der Weltkrieg ist da, die Vernichtung des Judentums muß die notwendige Folge sein.

With respect of the Jewish Question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that if they again brought about a world war, they would live to see their annihilation in it. That wasn't just a catch-word. The world war is here, and the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence.

 

[sonofgloin]

So that's your proof? Slinging mud?

I was not asking for 6 million autopsies, just one.

The verasity of the holocaust in eye witness terms is ebbing, because the witnesses have died or are at the end of their lives. I was not there, I can only draw conclusions from historical data, which to my mind is overwhelming and demonstates the mass transportation of Jews and Gypsies throughout Europe. But further to that I am in a position to give an account of some active participants to the holocaust. The Germans had a load of help from the Baltic states and the Ukraine. Auxilliary police formations were formed in these countries under the direct supervision of the Gestapo and SS. These men participated in the "actions" in the East and later when the areas were "Juden frei" these men went on to Poland to man the concentration and extermination camps. These thousands of active participants were not hunted as vigorously as the German perpitrators and after the war could more easily assimilate into the throngs of displaced persons seeking immigration to safer climes by the Red Cross.

The position I mention comes about through a family connection of thirty years. I gained the confidence and respect of two Latvian and two Ukrainian grandfathers within that family group who were members of the afore mentioned Auxilliary Police units. What they told me was according to them a secret that they never mentioned to their wives or children and nor have I. The conversation took place at a wake and the men are in their late 80's. The old guys were farewelling another who was as they were in the Auxilliary Police and their tongues were loosened by alcohol and I believe the need to tell someone of their lives during that 4 year period. I must explain that I am an African born immigrant to this country and I believe the turmoil and death that I grew up with gave these men an assurance that I did not have the qualms about life and death that westerners have, I grew up with ethnic genocide.

The conversation was filled with remorse and justification, all at the same time. Remorse that they were porns used to carry out the acts under threat of harm, and the constant psychological burden that they carried in silence for the length of their lives, but that is what happens when ordinary psyche's under go traumatic scenarios. Justification for the inhumane manner of the "work" (their term) that they did but with a reasoned plea of inhumane treatment, starvation and death visited upon their people by the USSR making them callous and uncaring at the time, (they were all nice friendly people in my experience of them).

These four old men talked about the "actions" in the east that they were a part of (two of them were 16 in 1941 when the Germans invaded their countries) and they talked of the camp system that they were transfered to after the east was ethnically cleansed. None of them were directly involved in the gassing but were transport and guard units, but they all brutalized and killed. In short from their mouths they told of the collection, transport, and destruction of Jews for a four year period. They also spoke of the social life they enjoyed as they were luckily coccooned away from the war front, they were drunk constantly.

I am not easily misled, these people have not mentioned a thing in regard to their roles in this for thirty years, and two have passed since that single discussion three years ago now. I believe they saw and perpitrated what they recounted to me. I have seen first hand ethnic cleansing and the suspension of reality involved in it, I can understand their involvement, perhaps that is why they told me.

 

[9/11-investigator]

9/11-investigator,

Have you considered moving to Turkey?
Denying genocide is quite popular there, you just have to switch from jew to armenian.

Interesting that you bring this up. I am not so sure if I have to switch. Since a few years there are some who maintain that the Armenian genocide was Jew-instigated as well, just like the Holomodor was. That Ataturk was a socalled Donmeh-Jew (a Jewish sect) and that his coterie of 'Young Turks' (compare with the present-day neocons), basically a group of Jews from Thessaloniki, were responsible for organizing this genocide:

http://www.jewishracism.com/JewishGenocide.htm

The idea behind that was that the Ottoman empire was imploding and that the question arose who was to be filling the power-vacuum.

Here is article from a Christian writer, Gary North, about the (in his eyes) 4 most successful trading/commercial nations in the world (Jews, Armenians, Scots, Dutch).

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north323.html

At the time of the genocide there were no Scots or Dutch in Turkey (they came much later in swimming gear). There were however Armenians and Jews present in the dying Ottoman Reich. The Jews and the Armenians were the 2 most likely candidates to fill the power-vacuum. The story is that the Jews (as they did so often in history) came up with an ideology (Turkish nationalism in this case) with which they challenged the Armenians, using the ordinary
Turk as a proxy who pulled the triggers. The Jews won. This explains why Turkey became a secular state. This explains why Turkey until recently had excellent relations with Israel and the US. It's now slowly Islamizing again and drifting away from the West and Israel.

Don't know if this is true, haven't looked into it, but in the light of what happened in the Ukraine in the thirties and in 2003 in the US/Iraq, it has a familiar ring about it: a small group of highly organized Jews setting a policy and carrying it out. But as I said, one holocaust at a time.

 

[sonofgloin]

I personally believe that Hitler himself must have given the order to Himmler, though the lack of evidence for this is slightly troubling.

Don't be slightly troubled, believe what you want to believe and be done with it. My opinion is that Hitler had issues with the Jews not only because of the Bolshi Jews of WW1, but his time in Vienna and his failure to gain acceptance to the Vienna Arts Academy, he somehow slighted this back to the Jews.

I watched a documentary interview with a telephonist at Hitlers headquarters, probably recorded in the 70's. The telephonist said he heard Goebbels telling Borman that X thousands of jews have been liquidated. To which Borman then rebuked him for verbalizing the message on the phone rather than by SS dispatch messenger, I saw the interview and a much older telephonist recounting it twenty years later on another more current doco. If Borman was being told he would tell Hitler. But I never doubted tha Hitler was the architect.

 

[Nonpareil]

<snip off-topic>

So do you have any evidence to support your claims that the Holocaust did not happen or don't you?

 

[Uzzy]

Well, I always prefer it when my beliefs are backed by evidence. I too find it inconceivable that Hitler didn't order it, but the lack of evidence for that is a bit odd. The Bormann thing is interesting though.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Don't be slightly troubled, believe what you want to believe and be done with it. My opinion is that Hitler had issues with the Jews not only because of the Bolshi Jews of WW1, but his time in Vienna and his failure to gain acceptance to the Vienna Arts Academy, he somehow slighted this back to the Jews.

I watched a documentary interview with a telephonist at Hitlers headquarters, probably recorded in the 70's. The telephonist said he heard Goebbels telling Borman that X thousands of jews have been liquidated. To which Borman then rebuked him for verbalizing the message on the phone rather than by SS dispatch messenger, I saw the interview and a much older telephonist recounting it twenty years later on another more current doco. If Borman was being told he would tell Hitler. But I never doubted tha Hitler was the architect.

You probably mean Traudl Junge?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c1mZ_VkYc4&feature=related

She even spoke English: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTPDfoSBnLM&feature=related

 

[9/11-investigator]

Well, I always prefer it when my beliefs are backed by evidence. I too find it inconceivable that Hitler didn't order it, but the lack of evidence for that is a bit odd. The Bormann thing is interesting though.

Uzzy shows he has an intellectual conscience. Chapeau.

 

[Nonpareil]

Uzzy shows he has an intellectual conscience. Chapeau.

Too bad the same can't be said for you. Do you or do you not have evidence?

 

[9/11-investigator]

The verasity of the holocaust in eye witness terms is ebbing, because the witnesses have died or are at the end of their lives. I was not there, I can only draw conclusions from historical data, which to my mind is overwhelming and demonstates the mass transportation of Jews and Gypsies throughout Europe.

Nobody denies that.

But further to that I am in a position to give an account of some active participants to the holocaust. The Germans had a load of help from the Baltic states and the Ukraine.

Why do you think that was? Let me help you. Before the Baltic states were conquered by the Germans, they first were conquered by the Soviets. And guess who the Balts perceived as the centrale organizing core of the Soviets? The Jews. The Soviets committed enormous atrocities themselves to cement themselves into power. What the Balts and the Ukrainians did was taking revenge on those who had carried out these atrocities after they were 'liberated' by the Germans. Initially these Eastern-Europeans saw the Germans as liberators. Unfortunately for them the Germans were not as charming as they hoped they would be.

Auxilliary police formations were formed in these countries under the direct supervision of the Gestapo and SS. These men participated in the "actions" in the East and later when the areas were "Juden frei" these men went on to Poland to man the concentration and extermination camps. These thousands of active participants were not hunted as vigorously as the German perpitrators and after the war could more easily assimilate into the throngs of displaced persons seeking immigration to safer climes by the Red Cross.

Could be correct.

The position I mention comes about through a family connection of thirty years. I gained the confidence and respect of two Latvian and two Ukrainian grandfathers within that family group who were members of the afore mentioned Auxilliary Police units. What they told me was according to them a secret that they never mentioned to their wives or children and nor have I. The conversation took place at a wake and the men are in their late 80's. The old guys were farewelling another who was as they were in the Auxilliary Police and their tongues were loosened by alcohol and I believe the need to tell someone of their lives during that 4 year period. I must explain that I am an African born immigrant to this country and I believe the turmoil and death that I grew up with gave these men an assurance that I did not have the qualms about life and death that westerners have, I grew up with ethnic genocide.

I have seen a video from David Irving where he says similar things. That he gets a German to talk about the mass shootings in front of his wife, who is shocked.

These four old men talked about the "actions" in the east that they were a part of (two of them were 16 in 1941 when the Germans invaded their countries) and they talked of the camp system that they were transfered to after the east was ethnically cleansed. None of them were directly involved in the gassing but were transport and guard units, but they all brutalized and killed. In short from their mouths they told of the collection, transport, and destruction of Jews for a four year period. They also spoke of the social life they enjoyed as they were luckily coccooned away from the war front, they were drunk constantly.

Why am I not surprised?

I am not easily misled, these people have not mentioned a thing in regard to their roles in this for thirty years, and two have passed since that single discussion three years ago now. I believe they saw and perpitrated what they recounted to me. I have seen first hand ethnic cleansing and the suspension of reality involved in it, I can understand their involvement, perhaps that is why they told me.

I'll surpress the urge to comment in the light of your experience.

 

[Trojan]

The content of that document is ambiguous.

If its ambigous why forge it? Why not just make it clear and put Hitler on the distribution list? For an international zionist conspiracy, they sure do a sloppy job

 

[sonofgloin]

You probably mean Traudl Junge?

Definately not, the lovely Traudl was one of Hitlers private secretaries, things of the nature we are discussing was hidden from her, I have seen her on numerous doco's. The telephonist I allude to was a male who worked the switch at Hitlers various headquarters, he was in the bunker at the end.

PS...9/11....I incorrectly said Goebels was on the phone to Borman....it should have been Himmler, a slip of the tongue...sorry.

 

[ferd burfle]

Again, in civilized societies the accuser (that's you) has to do the proving stuff.

Bull. This is not a court of law and you are not accused of a crime. You deny assertions by the majority of historians and the testimony of eyewitnesses. The burden is on you, period.

ferd

 

[Skeptic]

I am not surprised that a Dresden bombing believer like 9/11 investigator is resorting to quoting fiction writers (Kurt Vonnegut) as "evidence" for the hoax about Dresden being bombed ca. February 1945. That German lie is constantly being exposed, in stronger and stronger ways, by brave men and women for what it is, namely, a propaganda hoax by Nazis to gather sympathy for their cause. (Just look how 9/11 investigator uses it all the time.)

But what is the evidence? Take away a few forged documents, allegedly by the British, and all you have left is "eyewitness" accounts by Germans -- obviously made-up lies, since they're an interested party (just look at all the money they sponged off the guilt-ridden Americans in the Marshall plan after the war!) -- and similarly unreliable propaganda documents by Nazi town officials. It is true that there are some ruins in the area, but that is all the Germans' fault, the result of fighting during the war due to Hitler's idiotic "stand your ground at all costs" decree, not due to any allied planes bombing the place.

Even a little thinking shows that bombing Dresden would have made little military sense. Why would the allies waste precious airplanes and explosives, in the middle of a world war, just to bomb a city with little strategic importance and practically no military industry?

There's, in short, neither any reliable evidence, nor any logical reason, for any allied bombing of Dresden. Having no evidence and knowing it, 9/11 investigator is reduced to quoting an American comic fiction writer.

Ah well. So much for the Dresden hoax.

 

[Belz...]

You agree that Hitler wanted the Jews out of Europe, correct?

Ah, yes, but he really didn't, see ?