9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[9/11-investigator]

Holocaust were not the first or last genocide in history, so I don't see why it should be so hard to believe, unless somebody really don't want to.

Translation: since there were several genocides in history (and that's indeed true) I have to believe that the holocaust happened also.

Jeez, did they waste tuition fees on you or what.

I consider Toke as an asset for my case.

 

[9/11-investigator]

FYI, i didn't... still don't... don't particularly care either.

Much more interested in FINALLY seeing some evidence that back up your assertions. I hope that you won't keep us waiting too long.

Again, in civilized societies the accuser (that's you) has to do the proving stuff. Not me. And since it is impossible to prove/disprove the holocaust like the Pythagorean theorem we have to resort to discussions like this one in the hope that slowly a picture is emerging.

 

[Toke]

Translation: since there were several genocides in history (and that's indeed true) I have to believe that the holocaust happened also.

You don't get to use the usual truther line of "First time it has ever happened"

I consider Toke as an asset for my case.

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit?

 

[9/11-investigator]

YOU claimed there was no reference to the final solution in his diary -- there sure as hell is, just by a different name

Final solution. Endloesung. Certainly has a sinister ring about it.

Let's find out where that concept was first mentioned... googledigoolgedigoogledi...

Well, I'll be darned! the Jewish writer Henry Makow provides us with an answer: http://www.savethemales.ca/100203.html

Did you know the term "Final Solution" apparently was first used by American Jews to apply to Germans? In a 1941 book entitled Germany Must Perish, Theodore Kaufman advocated the sterilization of all Germans. The American Jewish Committee endorsed this call for genocide. Needless to say, it enraged the Nazis. (p.14) http://www.indianauniversity.org/11.htm (link is unsurprisingly dead)

I did not know that until this morning. You can still order this booklet via Amazon (don't forget to read the reviews). Some even claim that the book was from 1940. Anyway, it was written way before the Wannsee-conference of Januari 1942, where the decision was taken to 'exterminate all the Jews', or so the story goes.

Other 'highlights' regarding this piece of trash:
http://www.ihr.org/books/kaufman/perish.html

Theodore N. Kaufman, the author of Germany Must Perish, was a Manhattan-born Jewish businessman who was also chairman of a group that called itself the "American Federation for Peace." The first edition of this slim volume was published in 1940 or early 1941.

Kaufman's fervent proposal for the systematic sterilization of the entire German population was given respectful attention in the American press, including reviews in a number of newspapers. A review in the weekly Time magazine, March 24, 1941, called Kaufman's plan a "sensational idea."

 

[carlitos]

again

Before you address January 1942, why not address December, 1941.

Bezüglich der Judenfrage ist der Führer entschlossen, reinen Tisch zu machen. Er hat den Juden prophezeit, daß, wenn sie noch einmal einen Weltkrieg herbeiführen würden, sie dabei ihre Vernichtung erleben würden. Das ist keine Phrase gewesen. Der Weltkrieg ist da, die Vernichtung des Judentums muß die notwendige Folge sein.

With respect of the Jewish Question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that if they again brought about a world war, they would live to see their annihilation in it. That wasn't just a catch-word. The world war is here, and the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Let's discuss the Wannsee-conference.

Revisionists don't doubt that the conference took place. There are original documents that prove that.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Note080142.html

In this document Heydrich himself postpones the conference to January 20, 1942. He even uses the term Endlösung der Judenfrage. What is controversial though is what was discussed at that conference and especially the minutes of that meeting. No original of that document exists. 'Fortunately' one of the Jewish masterminds behind the Nuremberg showtrial, mr. Kempner had 'accidently' found a copy of the original somewhere in a drawer in the German foreign ministry (thoughts of finding Mohamed Atta's passport in a Manhattan street come to mind, but I digress).

Here are scans of the copy 'found' by Kempner:

http://www.ghwk.de/deut/proto.htm

This copy, which is central to the official story is discussed here:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1647

Some interesting arguments from the Codoh thread:

- no mention of 'gas chambers' or mass murder as a 'solution'

- Auschwitz commandant Hoess allegedly "confessed" that in August, 1941, Himmler told him to start gassing at Auschwitz and that it was already being done at Majdanek. So, we allegedly have mass extermination already in progress at Majdanek in Aug. '41, improved and underway at Auschwitz by October, 1941 and then in January 1942 we have Wannsee supposedly creating plans that have no bearing upon the current accepted timeline of mass extermination. Why hold a conference months after the alleged 'extermination plan' was already in progress?

- The source of the Wannsee Protocol document, which claims to be "copy 16 of 30", is none other than Nuremberg prosecutor, arch judeo-supremacist / Zionist, Robert Max Kempner.

Further in the first post Irving is quoted to indicated that a damning piece of counter-evidence was removed by Kempner: The sheet on document 4055-PS, a photostat of parts of the German ministry of the interior file on the Final Solution, shows that when first analysed by the experts it contained four important items relating to discussions on definitions of Jews; one of these four documents originating in the spring of 1942, showed Staatssekretaer Franz Schlegelberger informing his staff at the justice ministry that Dr. Hans Lammers, chief of the Reich chancellery, had phoned to inform him the the Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler, had 'repeatedly' ordered the solution of the Jewish problem 'postponed until after the war was over'. This did not suit Kempner at all, and when the file was returned to the document centre this particular photostat was missing."

Interesting is a post by Haldan:
from Chapter 8 of Holocaust or Hoax?: 30 copies of the Wannsee Protocol are supposed to have been prepared. Of these 30 copies, only 1, the 16th, has survived, quite remarkably, in several different versions, in which SS is written sometimes in runes, and sometimes in normal script.

Here you have 2 different versions of copy 16/30
http://vho.org/D/gzz/NeyW1.gif
http://www.ghwk.de/deut/Dokumente/proto-1.pdf

Even holocaustians like Yehuda Bauer dismiss the importance of Wannsee:

Even the exterminationists are distancing themselves further and further from the Wannsee protocol. In the Canadian Jewish News of 20 January 1992, Israeli Holocaust Specialist Yehuda Bauer, calls the belief that the conference arrived at any decision to exterminate the Jews, a "silly story". According to him, the whole caste of historians just blabbered a silly story for decades, like parrots. The "silly story" also appears in all schoolbooks.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Before you address January 1942, why not address December, 1941.

Not for the tenth time. See page 3.

 

[Trojan]

Let's discuss the Wannsee-conference.

I'm a bit lost, are you claiming the document is a forgery or are you claiming it does not spell out a plan of extermination?

 

[carlitos]

Not for the tenth time. See page 3.

I see no reference to DECEMBER diary entry by Goebbels on page 3.

 

[Uzzy]

Disregarding your amusing views on Empire, I'm curious about this part of your argument.

You agree that Hitler wanted the Jews out of Europe, correct? In this quote, you suggest that Hitler wanted to do this by permanently resettling them in Russia. Ok, that's fair enough. However, you also point out that the Russians fought back.

At this point, do you suppose that Hitler and other high ranking officials simply abandoned their plans to remove the Jews from Europe? Do also bare in mind that in the years 1942-1943, death was being inflicted upon the Eastern Front in massive numbers, enough to change the psyche of any. The SS were shooting Russian POW's, while battles such as the one at Stalingrad led to the death of almost 2 million people.

You skipped this question.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Disregarding your amusing views on Empire, I'm curious about this part of your argument.

You agree that Hitler wanted the Jews out of Europe, correct? In this quote, you suggest that Hitler wanted to do this by permanently resettling them in Russia. Ok, that's fair enough. However, you also point out that the Russians fought back.

At this point, do you suppose that Hitler and other high ranking officials simply abandoned their plans to remove the Jews from Europe? Do also bare in mind that in the years 1942-1943, death was being inflicted upon the Eastern Front in massive numbers, enough to change the psyche of any. The SS were shooting Russian POW's, while battles such as the one at Stalingrad led to the death of almost 2 million people.

I am going to make a statement here that may be interpreted as a concession, but it is not, really. I think that most of the smarties here will probably agree with me that there is not a shred of evidence that the Nazi-regime had a homicidal policy towards the Jews from the start in the 1920's. They just wanted to get rid of them. I have seen links that people like Eichmann even visited Palestine in 193x in order to try to arrange for the Jews to go there. Another possible Final Destination considered was Madagasqar. Uzzy seems to suggest to go along with that diagnosis for the moment. Then he mentions Stalingrad. The Germans lost the battle for Stalingrad, feb 1943. With hindsight many see that as the turning point of the war, although Stalingrad is situated at the Wolga, way beyond the Ukraine, as far eastern as Tiblisi, Georgia. So a German loss was not even certain at that time and hence no incentive for changing German policy (expulsion) was present. However, if that was German policy indeed, than I cannot rule out as a theoretical possibility that from the moment on that a German defeat became clear to the leadership that a change of policy happened and that they started to exterminate the Jews they had in their custody. Pure from the logic of the situation: "OK, we are going to lose the war you inflicted on us, but we are going to take you with us in the grave". And it is up to you to prove that these exterminations happened, if you think they did happen. But I am rather certain that nothing of the sort happened until at least the first months of 1943, as long as the Germans were in the 'winning mood'.

 

[9/11-investigator]

I'm a bit lost, are you claiming the document is a forgery or are you claiming it does not spell out a plan of extermination?

Substitute 'or' with 'and'.

 

[Trojan]

Substitute 'or' with 'and'.

Why would someone fake a document that does not prove anything?

 

[Trojan]

And it is up to you to prove that these exterminations happened, if you think they did happen.

They have been proven, by history, by legal procedures and by all standards of evidence.

You contend the world is wrong - that historians for 60 years have lied, that written history is incorrect, and that criminal judicial procedures in the East and West have been flawed.

Thus the burden lies with you.

Continue

 

[Simon39759]

I am going to make a statement here that may be interpreted as a concession, but it is not, really. I think that most of the smarties here will probably agree with me that there is not a shred of evidence that the Nazi-regime had a homicidal policy towards the Jews from the start in the 1920's. They just wanted to get rid of them. I have seen links that people like Eichmann even visited Palestine in 193x in order to try to arrange for the Jews to go there. Another possible Final Destination considered was Madagasqar. Uzzy seems to suggest to go along with that diagnosis for the moment. Then he mentions Stalingrad. The Germans lost the battle for Stalingrad, feb 1943. With hindsight many see that as the turning point of the war, although Stalingrad is situated at the Wolga, way beyond the Ukraine, as far eastern as Tiblisi, Georgia. So a German loss was not even certain at that time and hence no incentive for changing German policy (expulsion) was present. However, if that was German policy indeed, than I cannot rule out as a theoretical possibility that from the moment on that a German defeat became clear to the leadership that a change of policy happened and that they started to exterminate the Jews they had in their custody. Pure from the logic of the situation: "OK, we are going to lose the war you inflicted on us, but we are going to take you with us in the grave". And it is up to you to prove that these exterminations happened, if you think they did happen. But I am rather certain that nothing of the sort happened until at least the first months of 1943, as long as the Germans were in the 'winning mood'.

Babi Yar occured in September 1941; mass murderers occured since 1939.
It is not that the extermination was an alternate solution to the deportation.
It is deportation that, for a time, was half-heartily attempted as an additional way to get Jews out of Europe. It was abandoned at the Wannsee conference when the Nazis decided to focus on extermination.

 

[Nonpareil]

Substitute 'or' with 'and'.

So the forged documents claim that Hitler wasn't planning to kill the Jews?



If the documents on your side of the case are forged, then why are you using them?

9/11-investigator, you continue to show that you have no idea how to participate in an intellectual debate. Points are raised against you. Arguments are made to refute your accusations and, rather than trying to fight back, you simply ignore the fact that you have been shown wrong and bring up another claim of forgery or another "expert" who claims to be a revisionist. None of this helps your case if you cannot defend your own central tenets - namely, that no Jews were executed in the extermination camps.
You cannot support this contention, yet you continue to act as if you had a case.
Hundreds of bodies were found. Jewish survivors were rescued. All their tales corroborated a single, unified tale. The gas chambers are still there today, as are the other facilities. Pictures were taken. Documents detailing the transportation of the Jewish prisoners are publicly available. The Nazi leaders themselves confessed to the crimes. Hitler spoke at length about his intentions. And yet your only answer to all of this evidence is to scream "FAKE!" And you are unable to prove that your screamed assertion is true.
So you'll excuse me if I am utterly unable to take you seriously, and when I state completely and unequivocally that you have lost the debate.

Yes, I am aware of Danth's Law.

 

[9/11-investigator]

They have been proven, by history, by legal procedures and by all standards of evidence.

You contend the world is wrong - that historians for 60 years have lied, that written history is incorrect, and that criminal judicial procedures in the East and West have been flawed.

Thus the burden lies with you.

Continue

Abandoning all hope of argument, we are now treated with an appeal to authority.

 

[Uzzy]

When this 'authority' is the Nuremberg Trials, it's hard to get much higher really. I don't much feel like redoing them either. The evidence is massed on our side, really.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Why would someone fake a document that does not prove anything?

The content of that document is ambiguous.

 

[Nonpareil]

Abandoning all hope of argument, we are now treated with an appeal to authority.

Actually, it's the appeal to evidence. Merely stating the opinion of one person in an authoritative position is the appeal to authority. But the fact that the trials which you claim are an appeal to authority actually presented evidence and ended with the confession of the accused, it leaves the realm of "authority" and enters "evidence". It is not the judges' opinion that interests us. It is the fact that the accused German officials confessed.

The content of that document is ambiguous.

Then how does it help your case?