• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

Status
Not open for further replies.
That's interesting, but I would not go as far as see it as a proven Lucian mistake as there might very well have been, as suggested, more than one rebel named Theudas...
 
Last edited:
The Wiki article isn't the best to give the entire background, but I would recommend Richard Pervo's Dating Acts for a more in depth explanation of Theudas and how that story, among others, links Acts to Josephus.


First of all, I need to comment about somebody called 'pervo' writing a book with 'dating' in the title.

Then, after looking around, I noticed that a) it is a bit expansive for my budget. b) that nobody at my library seems to have heard about it...

I will have to look around some more and check for the interlibrary loan...
 
All glory to Pharao.

Although, I think that a DIC of 1 would be a great credibility, as it means that everybody agrees with you.
50% seems closer to realistic.


Looking at the data I can't help but remark that Doc should have been excluded, after all, one can hardly argue that he convinced himself. It was his opinion from the beginning and the quality of his argument has nothing to do with it.
I also notice how the one person actually agreeing with Doc was a surprising 'one shot' poster. That's weird...

But DOC did convince himself. He said so:

I'm convinced by all the evidence I've presented in my 1200 posts in this thread as well as other evidence I've presented in other threads. For example my thread "The 25 fulfilled prophecies of Isaiah 53". If your truly not convinced, then so be it. But there is plenty of evidence there for Christians to believe, and nothing any skeptic has said in this or any other thread has changed my mind.

You see, he started out with the belief that the NT writers had told the truth, and after 1200 or so posts, he's completely won himself over to his side.
 
There's a lot of it about.
Y'know, what with its use of the Minstrel names of Liza and Henry, I always that that was a (offensive term for African Americans ahead, but that's what they were called 80 years ago) Coon song. I can now sing it with only the least bit of apprehension because it's not about who I thought it was, but is instead about my own, passive-aggressive, German forebears!

Odetta and Harry Belafonte recording it shoulda been a clue, I suppose, but as my role model, Stepin Fetchit, parlayed his PA character that mocked The Man, kept him out of useful work, and didn't go so far that Massa killed him into a long career, I thought he had also been inspired by it.
 
...I have provided 84 "highly detailed" facts written by Luke in just the last 16 chapters of Acts that classical scholar and historian Colin Hemer identifies as having been confirmed by historical and archaeological research.
No

You have NOT provided highly detailed facts

What you HAVE done is repeatedly post links to and excerpts of Z-grade web pages that are littered with vague, irrelevant waffle that has been thoroughly debunked
 
All glory to Pharao.

Although, I think that a DIC of 1 would be a great credibility, as it means that everybody agrees with you.
50% seems closer to realistic.


Looking at the data I can't help but remark that Doc should have been excluded, after all, one can hardly argue that he convinced himself. It was his opinion from the beginning and the quality of his argument has nothing to do with it.
I also notice how the one person actually agreeing with Doc was a surprising 'one shot' poster. That's weird...

Could we have a run-through of the figures, excluding DOC's posts, please?
 
I noticed, other than DOC returned to Sir X's opinion, that he mentioned the late dr Colin Hemer's conclusions. 'Search' gave me a thread from 2003 and Google gave me this link:

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cach...er+debunk&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=es&lr=lang_en


Where I found this:
First, the book of Acts contains numerous historical facts that can be checked out. One researcher, Colin Hemer, found that at least 84 historical facts found in Acts can be confirmed by independent evidence. 84 facts!! According to modern-day Roman historian A. N. Sherwin-White: “For Acts the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming. . . . Any attempt to reject its basic historicity must now appear absurd. Roman historians have long taken it for granted.” In other words, the book of Acts is used by professional historians to study Roman history. In that same book of Acts that contains rock-solid history, Luke also records 35 miracles. We need to give Luke the benefit of the doubt, don’t we? Using other sources to check his facts, Luke has been proven a first-rate historian, so it is eminently reasonable to believe the miraculous accounts he recorded in the days of the early church.

Luke’s reputation as an historian carries over in the Gospel of Luke. Just read Luke 3:1-2 and tell me Luke didn’t care about getting the facts right. He practically begs his readers to check his facts. World-famous historian William Ramsay studied Luke’s historical accuracy for 20 years and concluded: “Luke’s history is unsurpassed in respect of its trustworthiness. Luke is an historian of first rank. [He] should be placed along with the very greatest of historians.”

Sound familiar?
It's from part 7 of a series of blogs dedicated to showing the NT writers wrote the truth; this particular extract is from February of 2009.

Added-
Here's the conclusion from part 1 of the same blog series:

One additional reason that dating the books is important is due to the nature of legendary development. We’re all probably familiar with the way legends or myths can develop about an event, given enough time. In fact, history is full of strange and outrageous stories of Jesus or the apostles doing bizarre things (e.g., Jesus marrying Mary Magdalene and having a child). The one thing these legends have in common is that they were created by people who lived many generations and often hundreds of years removed from the time Jesus and the apostles lived.

In fact, historians have shown that it takes a minimum of three generations for legend to substantially corrupt core historical facts about an event. Usually, more than 3 generations are required, but there are no examples of legend significantly crowding out truth in 1 or 2 generations. Why is this? As long as the eyewitnesses of an event are still alive, or their children, they will correct any legend or falsehood that taints the true story. When the eyewitnesses and their children start to die, there are fewer people left to correct falsehood, so legend can creep in. This fact about history will prove useful in assessing the NT.

Next post, we will continue looking at this important question.
 
Last edited:
Sound familiar?
Alas, yes

It sounds just like the sort of delusion-reinforcing bollocks that is promoted by conspiracy theorists:
  • a willful ignorance of reality
  • a dogged refusual to acknowledge what does/does not constitute evidence
  • a stubborn refusal to apply Occam's razor
  • a persistent use of logical fallacies
  • a mind-numbing inability to apply logic
 
Are you sure you have read all the posts in this thread?

Your statement is false, I have provided 84 "highly detailed" facts written by Luke in just the last 16 chapters of Acts that classical scholar and historian Colin Hemer identifies as having been confirmed by historical and archaeological research. Obviously information like this (that includes archaeological evidence) would be part of the reason archaeologist Ramsay who spent 15 years doing research in biblical lands made his statement.

For those who haven't read these 84 facts, go to the following URL and scroll down to the list of these 84 facts written by gospel writer Luke. It also later lists 59 "highly detailed" facts gospel writer John correctly got right.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=51643

Come now, Doc. I've already shown that there were thousands of verses that Luke and John wrote, opposed to the 140-odd "facts" you claim are verified. Truly, if it were by the numbers, you would have to admit that there are far more verses than facts in their writings. Even if we were to allow that a single fact requires 2-3 verses to completely notate, we're still talking <50% accuracy (given there were a total of over 3000 verses between the two of them).
 
I followed this series of blogs with the comments posted up and finally, at part 8, the author gives his/her crowning argument:
from part 8
archaeology.

There is one final piece of evidence that you should consider, though. I think it is one of the strongest historical evidences we have.

Here it is. The apostles, some of whom wrote portions of the NT, were all killed for their beliefs, except John. According to historical documents, Paul was beheaded and Peter was crucified upside down – both of them killed in Rome. James, the brother of Jesus and leader of the Jerusalem church, was thrown off the top of the Jerusalem temple and stoned to death. The other apostles met similar fates. Before they died, they were beaten, stoned, imprisoned, mocked, and persecuted, mostly because of their professed beliefs in Christ.

Odd that a blog out since February 2009 should mirror DOC's arguments here so well, isn't it.
 
Doc, I accept the evidence for Alexander the Great because I don't care whether he's real or not. Does Socrates or Alexander's existance affect modern society? If Socrates' philosphy was proven to be from someone else, so what? Now if you and/or others were to insist that my morals came from Alexander, legislated that we had to believe in Alexander, killed each other on disagreements over what Alexander did or said and otherwise made real world decisions based on Alexander, then yes, I would need a lot more evidence than we currently have.

Edit: btw, joobz your multiple choice quiz was inspired.:)
 
Last edited:
Still waiting for the evidence that the New Testament writers told the truth.

And before anyone asks: Yes, I have read every post in this thread. And, yes, I am a glutton for punishment. Shoot, me and the missus still play snooker on a semi-regular basis even though I can count the times I've beaten her on one hand. . .through nearly 40 years of marriage.

You get beat by a woman in the game of gentlemen? Oh the shame of it all! You sir have let the side down. Please put away your Que, and never pick it up again.
I used to be a very handy player in my youth, but am no longer a member of the club where I played. joking, OK?
 
Edit: btw, joobz your multiple choice quiz was inspired.:)

It was, indeed, but I claim a win:

You forgot:

F. We don't have any of their signatures, so there's more evidence that Jesus existed.
For foreshadowing:

Yes, skeptics demand extraordinary evidence for Christ but don't demand extraordinary evidence for Alexander the Great who did the extraordinary thing of conquering much of the known world.





Callisthenes -- his works have perished

General Ptolemy -- his works have perished

Onesiscritus -- why do use someone you call "the liar" a source?? But I can understand why you called him the liar. Here is a passage from your source:

"Though an eye-witness of much that he described, it appears that he intermixed many fables and falsehoods with his narrative, so that he early fell into discredit as an authority. Strabo is especially severe upon him.[12] Plutarch cites him as one of those who related the fable of the visit of the Amazons to Alexander, for which he was justly ridiculed by Lysimachus,[8] and Arrian accuses him of falsely representing himself as the commander of the fleet, when he was in truth only the pilot.[13"

And here are passages from your last source:

There are numerous surviving ancient Greek and Latin sources on Alexander, as well as some oriental texts. None are contemporary.

The primary sources written by people who actually knew Alexander or who gathered information from men who served with Alexander, are all lost, apart from a few inscriptions and fragments.[1]

Here is what the book cited in post #1 says:

"The truth is, we base virtually everything we know about the "extraordinary" life of Alexander the Great from historians who wrote 300 to 500 years after his death! In light of the robust evidence for the life of Christ, anyone who doubts Christ's historicity should also doubt the historicity of Alexander the Great. In fact, to be consistent, such a skeptic would have to doubt all ancient history."
 
Can you define appeal to authority and appeal to popularity?




And what about all the errors Luke makes? People have already discussed several of the major issues (geneaology, census, Paul's conversion, Paul's actions after his conversion). How about a new one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theudas

So, not only was it possible that Luke was a plagiarist, but a clumsy one at that.

Another post where a someone talks of errors as if they are proven and have no explanations. I've already given explanations for your theory of errors with Paul's conversion, and Paul's actions after his conversions. Regarding geneology, one geneology could have been for Joseph and one for Mary. I have never seen one supposed error in the New Testament that does not have a logical explanation for it.
 
But DOC did convince himself. He said so:


You see, he started out with the belief that the NT writers had told the truth, and after 1200 or so posts, he's completely won himself over to his side.
I didn't win myself over, the evidence has. And I didn't start out with the belief the NT writers told the truth. I was an atheist in my mid twenties.
 
<stuff>

I have never seen one supposed error in the New Testament that does not have a logical explanation for it.


Matthew 13:13

Therefore I speak to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


Jeremiah 5:21

Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not.


Isaiah 6:9-10

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear you indeed, but understand not; and see indeed, but perceive not.​
 
Originally Posted by pakeha
Sound familiar?
Alas, yes

It sounds just like the sort of delusion-reinforcing bollocks that is promoted by conspiracy theorists:
  • a willful ignorance of reality
  • a dogged refusual to acknowledge what does/does not constitute evidence
  • a stubborn refusal to apply Occam's razor
  • a persistent use of logical fallacies
  • a mind-numbing inability to apply logic

As applicable now as it was then.
Now, however, DOC is invited to explain how it is his posts reflect the blogs of another person but give no credit to that author.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom