Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.
Here's one of mangler's original Poser 7, not neltana's Daz Studio, skeleton overlays. One skeleton from a 3D modelling software package put over top of Patty and Bob...
Now let's break out the tape measure and get into some numbers so as to destroy Sweaty's fanatic insanity that the skeletons might not be the same and show once again for clear-headed, rational thinking people that Bob's arms are a great match for Patty's...
Humerus length on Patty skeletal overlay - 1.2 cm
Radius/ulna length on Patty skeletal overlay - 1.1 cm
Humerus length on Heironimus skeletal overlay - 1.2 cm
Radius/ulna length on Heironimus skeletal overlay - 1.1 cm
No failure of the physics engine. No quibble, dither, run, or hide. The arms match, they are the same arms, it is the same skeleton. No insanity, no backflips, no preposterous attempts at denial, no footer dementia.
Sorry, kitzo.....but, since Bob's arm is straight, in that image, the location of his elbow is not clearly-defined. Therefore, we can't tell that "the elbows line-up just fine".
Footer dementia may be taking a heavy toll on your eyesight. It might just be your eyes aren't what they used to be. But here is why you're just SOL with that escape routine...
1) In the image you reposted Bob's right arm is not completely straight but slightly bent so as to show where his elbow is. In the left suit image you can see that Bob's elbow is just about a milimeter above the point where the background foliage changes from green to a lighter yellowish. In the right suit image it is not immediately as clear where Bob's right elbow is but by looking at the underside of his arm, you can see that the elbow is at the point exactly 6 mm below the second yellow line from the top. In both suit images I can see where Bob's left arm is slightly bent, aiding me to discern where the right elbow is...
If there is anyone other than yourself, a footer dementia, desperate belief-addled fanatic, who contends where I see the Bob's elbow in those images, please, by all means, feel free to indicate where they think the elbows are or if they feel that it is unclear. Again, that means normal people, not you. Lurkers, regulars, Bigfoot proponents, anyone.
2) In the images of Bob in a suit, we know for a fact that it is Bob Heironimus in a suit. Luckily for sane people, and unluckily for fanatics such as Sweaty, we have images of Bob from the time back in the day when he was playing Bigfoot with Patterson where his elbow is clearly indicated, aiding us to place his elbow when he is in a suit. Here we go...
Wow, look at Bob's looooong humerus. I wonder how we would compare seeing how BH and I are nearly the same height (I'm 6'1" or 74 inches/188 cm). My humerus is about 38 cm or 15 inches (shoulder to elbow). I wonder how Bob might compare with my 35.81% of total body height from the ends of my hands to the ground.
So oops for you, Patty and Bob's eyes, elbows, and knees do in fact line up just fine. If they do not in the images I have posted, feel free to demonstrate it.
Wonderful. Andrew Lloyd Sweaty loves to dance and sing. What an interesting response to proof that that mangler Poser 7 skeletal overlay showing BH's arms to be of similar proportions to Patty and not separate skeletons or suffering from physics engine fail is 100% undeniably legitimate.
Yeah, hmmm. Well, you know, that's kind of what happens when footer dementia sets in. *cuckoo sound* You could call it...
If Sweaty wants to share the songs he sings to his little Slatty McPosty rather than actually address the proof, by all means, let dear ol' Sweaty be as nutty as he wants to be.
I'll just happily post the proof again...
Poor Sweaty's up $#!% Creek on that one, otherwise known as that river called "denial".
...a) simply provided the evidence that Patty and BH's eyes, elbows, and knees do line up just fine and b) provided a perfect example of the futility of jumping through hoops of an intellectually dishonest coward and taking the time to provide exact measurements. Here it is again...
Of course, in Sweaty World posting avoiding LTC's statement of the obvious is the only way to go. Intellectual honesty is even more elusive for Sweaty than Bigfoot is.
*sigh*
Length of Vision Realm pseudo-science art fluff skeleton's humerus on screen: 2cm
Illustration of human skeleton's humerus on screen: 2cm
Length of Vision Realm pseudo-science art fluff skeleton's radius/ulna on screen: 1.5cm
Illustration of human skeleton's radius/ulna on screen: 1.5cm
You don't have a tape measure in there do you, Sweaty?...
Notice any similarity??? (Hint: Look at the numbers.)
Specifics, details, numbers, measurements demonstrating the crap of a Sweaty comparison. Poor old guy couldn't even cook up an Andrew Lloyd Sweaty number for that.
And that is exactly why when Sweaty asks for anything, you tell him what he can do with the request.
kitakaze can't deal with direct comparisons ofPatty and BOB, ]himself....so, when the going gets tough, he switches over to a Bob-in-a-suit image, and then misrepresents it.....to boot.
No, no. That's right, I see now. No, why would you ever want to compare Bob Heironimus in a Bigfoot suit to what is supposedly Bob Heironimus in a Bigfoot suit? How silly of me. I... I think I... Yes, I do. I smell something burning. Do you smell something burning, Sweaty?
In the left suit image you can see that Bob's elbow is just about a milimeter above the point where the background foliage changes from green to a lighter yellowish.
Excellent!!! I'm glad that you have such a keen eye for locating elbows, kittles!
Now.......tell us where you think Bob's elbow is located in this image.......it should be EXTREMELY EASY to locate........right???...
And, as soon as you do that, I can put together a FANTASTIC.....SUPER-ACCURATE, KITAKAZE-APPROVED comparison of "Bob-in-a-suit" with Bob!!!
Just think of it, GAS GIANT GUY......when we get a good read on the location of Bob's elbow, in that suit there.....we'll be able to match-up, very accurately, Bob's elbow with Bob's elbow...and Bob's eyes with Bob's eyes.....and show that that MUST be Bob in a suit!!!
Come on, kittles.....stand-up and show the world your intellectual prowess.....
1) This is an excellent example of Sweaty's footer dementia. Can't support my claim? Sweaty, you claimed that BH couldn't be Patty because you posted an image where Patty and Bob's eyes and elbows lined up but the lower body did not. I pointed out that the distance between them is variable and claimed that your comparison was invalid an improperly scaled. I supported the claim by posting multiple images of Bob Heironimus and Patty with their eyes, elbows, and knees lining up. I provided further support to show that this was indeed the case.
Simple question and please do not dodge this - did I support my claim? Yes or no answer followed by whatever explanation you like.
2) Out of priniciple, based on your continuing behaviour, I refused to grant a request of yours. I very recently provided you with exactly the thing you are asking for with no acknowledgement from you. Let's make this simple.
Simple question - did I or did I not show that your Vision Realm/skeleton drawing elbow faceplant was invalid and meaningless? Yes or no followed by whatever explanation you like. Here it is again because you may have missed it...
3) Would you like me to provide you with some measurements of your misscaling? Well, I can absolutely do that, but the thing is Sweaty, we're going to have to work out an arrangement here. See, as point #2 makes quite clear, giving something for nothing is just plain stupid. Why take the time when I know you'll just be the coward that you are?
No, we need to have an exchange. You want me to give you some scaling measurements for your latest faceplant? Sure thing, I'll get it done today and hold on to it. I've already given you lots of measurements to deal with. What you will have to do to have your request granted is just go right ahead and take these three images...
Now what I'd like you to do is whip out one of your crayons and first put a big fat dot on Bob's right elbow in the shot of him playing Bigfoot with Patterson. Next I'd like you to go to the Patty and Bob-in-suit comparisons and put big fat dots where you think the right elbows are in each shot. That way we can assess how correct or incorrect you actually think my statement was when I said Patty and Bob's eyes, elbows, and knees line up fine.
If you fail to honour your end of the exchange, I will take it as a concession that you in fact know that my statement about Patty and Bob lining up is correct. If you continue to say that I can't support my claims when I have shown exactly how I already have and how I will do so even further to your exact request for measurements, then I it will be taken as a blatant lie and a concession of your own inability to back your own claims.
This is how things must work when I deal with a person who I know to be conniving and intellectually dishonest. If you have a problem with that, chastize yourself for always being so weasely in debate.
Deal or no deal, Sweaty?
Remember, if you live up to your part of the bargain and I do not, you score the biggest point on me ever. If you turn this deal down, you pants yourself and show you cowardice for everyone to see.
Oh my goodness, Sweaty. You're a beast with these things. I hope you don't handle TV's like you handle irono-meters. But I do appreciate your attempts to goad me. So how participaction would it be if I responded to your latest request with some little Andrew Lloyd Sweaty ditty? Like I just came back with cracked out non sequitur whistles, verse, and all-caps. Would that be some meaningful discussion? Would that be moving things forward?
Tell you what, Sweaty. Even though you deserve the trust of no one here, I am going to give you some leeway. I just proposed a deal, withholding my end until you came through, so here I'll ask for another exchange and give you the goods first. I'll be like the Yakuza and you can be the Mafia or whoever you like. I'll kick over my suitcase first. In return I want you to respond to my post proving the validity of one of mangler's Poser 7 overlays with measurements with an actual rebuttal and not the Andrew Lloyd Sweaty runaway garbage.
OK, the elbow, yeah? That picture is like trying to find a quarter in the pool with no goggles but I would say that the elbow is located right where that dark band area is near where the lightened area on the torso is. I'd highlight it but that would mean I would have to copy the image and put it in my album here. I have one space left and I'm not wasting it on that. My guess is that the elbow is in that really dark area of the arm right where the torso goes from lighter to dark.
Fresh out of the oven......Bob's hind end.....fried just a wee bit more......
And this time.....with the help of kitty-POO's beloved skeleton.
I used the measurements of Bob's highly-accurate skeleton.....across the breastbone...and the upper-arms, and transferred them onto Patty's image.
Naturally....in keeping with ALL of the other direct comparisons, Bob's smaller body-width, and shorter upper arms cause his elbows to come up way short of where Patty's elbows are located, in the image above.
It's not even close.
This is a result of the 2 factors highlighted in blue, just above, and illustrated in this skeletal comparison...
The elbows reveal where Patty's shoulder-joints are actually located...due to the fact that Patty's elbows can reach...at the same time....BOTH further away from the body, and further down from the head, than Bob's can.
(Note: In this new comparison, I over-sized Bob's image a little....giving his limbs extra length......but it still leaves him well short of Patty's dimensions.
In addition to that, I gave Bob even more "extra" length...by giving Patty the same length breastbone as Bob, even though she's being viewed at a greater angle, and her body-width is more 'shortened' by that angle-of-view.)
And kitty......keeps playing with his skeleton dolls...
If you fail to honour your end of the exchange, I will take it as a concession that you in fact know that my statement about Patty and Bob lining up is correct. If you continue to say that I can't support my claims when I have shown exactly how I already have and how I will do so even further to your exact request for measurements, then I it will be taken as a blatant lie and a concession of your own inability to back your own claims.
This is how things must work when I deal with a person who I know to be conniving and intellectually dishonest. If you have a problem with that, chastize yourself for always being so weasely in debate.
Deal or no deal, Sweaty?
Remember, if you live up to your part of the bargain and I do not, you score the biggest point on me ever. If you turn this deal down, you pants yourself and show you cowardice for everyone to see.
1) Wow. That is some blurry crap right there. I thought you had numbers on your side. More scribbles. *sigh* Dear ol' Sweaty, you never change.
2) Bob is scaled way too big and the line you placed for his collar bone is way too high on Patty blob. BTW, where's that proof of no shoulder pads I keep asking for. Did you think we wouldn't notice?
3) Both Poser 7 and Daz Studio skeleton fitting Bob fit into to images of Patty from behind just fine. No scribbles, bad scaling, or blurry messes necessary.
This is a result of the 2 factors highlighted in blue, just above, and illustrated in this skeletal comparison...
Truer words have never been spoken. Here's a look at a collection of classic faceplants by Sweaty and his failure to refute the success of skeletal overlays proving that Bob Heironimus could very well have been the man in the suit...
Here we see Sweaty saying that Patty's arms are way too long and that for Bob to be in the suit, there must have been a remote controlled device:
Now let's break out the tape measure and get into some numbers so as to destroy Sweaty's fanatic insanity that the skeletons might not be the same and show once again for clear-headed, rational thinking people that Bob's arms are a great match for Patty's...
Humerus length on Patty skeletal overlay - 1.2 cm
Radius/ulna length on Patty skeletal overlay - 1.1 cm
Humerus length on Heironimus skeletal overlay - 1.2 cm
Radius/ulna length on Heironimus skeletal overlay - 1.1 cm
As those numbers show, no such extension would be needed at all and a glove would suffice just fine. Sweaty was unable to address that proof in any meaningful way but he did give us some nice Andrew Lloyd Sweaty.
Next up, in one of the stupidest moments of footer dementia Sweaty scribbles on the knees and ankles of one of the overlay comparisons and declares that the body height has seriously been overscaled. What fool can not discern the difference in height between a person standing erect and walking slouched? Well, Sweaty can't and when pointed out to him, he fancied himself quite brilliant scribbling on the overlay's pelvis...
And thus mangler assisted Sweaty with his physics fail and provided him with this...
Unfortunately, trying to help Sweaty with physics is like giving a meth addict a toothbrush and Sweaty actually asked why Patty's head doesn't bob up and down so much in the film. Sweaty, again, was unable to comprehend the difference between standing fully erect and walking slouched.
Moving on, we have Sweaty's oft-repeated, never proven contention that Patty is simply too wide to be Bob in a suit...
Sweaty has never had any success in trying to refute that Bob might be wearing some form of shoulder pads as one would expect with a modified suit attempting to portray Bigfoot. Sweaty seems to think simply stating as fact that the Patty suit had no padding on the shoulders is something he can slip by people uncontested. Astrophotographer was kind enough to provide us with the following measurements of Patty's height, width, and other proportions which Sweaty has never once even attempted to directly address (he doesn't like numbers, just scribbles)...
Of course, if one didn't have a physics-challenged, footer dementia-addled mind and have a fetish for nonsense scribbling, one might just take a skeleton and simply turn it around and see that there is no width problem at all...
Finally, in what I consider to be the very stupidest and most desperate of all of Sweaty's failed attempts to deny the finality of the proof of skeletal overlays, Sweaty's claim that not only does the upper arm bone of mangler's Poser 7 skeleton suddenly become shorter but that neltana's Daz Studio animation does as well through some bizarre anomaly of both of their physics engines. Two physics programs failing in exactly the same unique way, just when you turn an upper arm bone like so, and Sweaty has been saved from acknowledging double-confirmed proof. Sweaty uses the logic that, well crap, computers could just do anything. Who knows what they're doing? The greatest stupidity of all. Here's Sweaty's first post about "shrinking" humerus'...
Mangler soon after provides Sweaty a detailed explanation and animated gif of the physics of what Sweaty is seeing. Again, toothbrushes for meth addicts...
But ever in footer dementia denial of reality, Sweaty doesn't accept what manglers helping him with in his physics fail. Sweaty says that to accept that what mangler did was valid, he would have to see a continuous animation of one postion flowing into the other...
I don't think that mangler's original skeletal overlay should be "accepted" as anything of meaning....until it can be demonstrated that the skeleton over Patty can be moved, continuously, into the exact position, with the exact same bone lengths that it's seen in, over Bob's image.
As 'standard practice' in any scientific analysis...it should also be replicable by others.
And of course, that brings us to the sky falling on Sweaty with neltana's proof, the continuous animation seen here (1:30 - 1:35)...
Exactly what Sweaty asked for and exactly what he got, double-confirmed proof. And does Sweaty accept this? Ha! Of course not. The footer dementia is terminal, it will never recede, never go away. Sweaty is so pathetically desperate to deny the truth that he says that Poser 7 and Daz Studio are both tricking him in just the right way. Both are shrinking the humerus'just when you stick them in Bob like that. I have never seen such amazing stupidity and denial in my life. Simply astounding.
Sweaty's needed to be saved from the grip of reality tightening on him. Some way to live in denial another day. Both physics engines were lying to him and he need a hero. That hero's name was Slatty McPosty...
Slatty, sweet Slatty, you understand the lies and the twisted truth, don't you? You know how that evil Poser 7 and wicked Daz Studio deceive the mind, don't you? You are real, Slatty. You are real and not some silly computer junk. Those computers, they'll just do anything! HAHAHA! I love you, Slatty, my only friend.
One final note regarding the skeleton overlays of mangler and neltana:
Sweaty thinks the Vision Realm conceptual art of Patty's skeleton is a good fit...
Sorry Kit but the skeleton overlays actually sink your ship.
If the CGI skeleton represents the actual dimensions of the actor inside the suit then the fit should be perfect, not just close. Unless you can demonstrate a level of distortion in the images that would account for the discrepancies, there are no excuses. Seemed to fit Bob H well.
Mangler & Neltana did excellent jobs lining up the "human" skeletons, as best they could, but what they did was achieve a "best fit" given Patty's body proportions and the oblique angle of her body w.r.t the camera. But their best fit wasn't so great actually. It should be perfect and MUST be made to fit over EVERY possible frame and every part of the body. This is the ONLY way to build an accurate model of Patty and the only way you can claim the skeleton models represent Patty's true body dimensions.
The left shoulder is way out which cannot be attributed to shoulder pads. The shoulder pads, if present were very subtle. They did not show a subduction of the humerus into the body to extend the arm length. If shoulder pads were present they also included prosthetics that perfectly transitioned the humerus to the shoulder. But then you don't believe they are subducted anyway. Your claim is that the arm length is ok, as is, correct?
The body orientation of the skeleton and Patty make it impossible to superimpose them with confidence. This cannot be verified using just a couple of frames. The arms and legs in particular cannot be estimated if Patty's limbs are foreshortened in any way. You can ALWAYS match CGI arms and legs to foreshortened limbs, but you can't claim they actually fit. Here is what I mean. The following simple diagram shows how 2 estimates of the leg can appear to be a perfect fit when viewed from behind. But foreshortening is at work and cannot be resolved with a single image and 1 oblique view. Same applies for the arms.
Accounting for distance from the camera is crucial as well. The closer the subject is to the camera, the more distorted the body is. Body parts that are closer to the camera appear larger. Think porno. Fortunately, Patty was far enough from the camera to minimize this distortion, which is great for this exercise. But how far away is the skeleton supposed to be from the camera? We MUST know this to match the level of distortion. Is the skeleton supposed to be at infinity? This exercise is much trickier than you think.
Actually, this skeleton overlay tells us nothing "as is". The only way to use this method to measure anything is to develop a CGI model based on an optimal fit of the skeleton on dozens of frames from the PGF. The Poser/DAZ software handles the inverse kinematics so you can manipulate/adjust the skeleton to achieve an averaged/optimal fit. This is what Vision Realm attempted to do. But all their methodology remained hidden and their results were unverifiable, and essentially invalid. Otherwise, if this exercise was done to photogrammetric standards, and included an error analysis, there should be a research paper at the end of it. This would require submitting a panel of overlaid images which demonstrate an optimal fit of the model. Then the accuracy of the model can be tested and confirmed/refuted. But these skeleton overlays, as is, can't tell you anything, let alone that Bob H fits inside the Patty suit. If anything it indicates that he didn't, IMHO.
Same approx. distance from the camera, same body orientation, scaled to the same foot length (14.5"). Note the arms.
Sorry Kit but the skeleton overlays actually sink your ship.
If the CGI skeleton represents the actual dimensions of the actor inside the suit then the fit should be perfect, not just close. Unless you can demonstrate a level of distortion in the images that would account for the discrepancies, there are no excuses. Seemed to fit Bob H well.
Now this is intelligent debate. You make some good points, Óðinn, but it's important to keep in mind what the point of the overlays are. What mangler has done and neltana confirmed is is not proof of any kind that BH was without doubt Patty. Nor do I claim that the fit is perfect. I think it's good, but not perfect. What they simply show is that a normal human skeleton can fit into both Patty and Bob in a variety of positions. I am not claiming that the virtual skeletons from Poser 7 or Daz Studio are showing Bob exactly, but are rather an anologue for how Bob could fit within the suit...
There is also the point that the fit to Patty is not just one position. I agree with you that a Poser 7 or Daz Studio skeleton being overlayed to every single frame in which we see Patty would be ideal, but AFAIC, the various overlays more than adequately establish that it's not impossible for BH to have been Patty or a human in general. Footers are telling us that Patty's proportions are inhuman when they are clearly not.
I take that fact, along with the fact that BH was there at the time involved with Patterson's Bigfoot escapades...
...and that Patty looks to be about the same height as Bob (as you have also shown)...
...and the fact that Bob in a suit is a good match for Patty's proportions...
...and the fact that Roger was creatively talented, if not quite honest...
...and the fact that he had the means necessary...
...to allow me to be strongly of the position that BH was in actuality Patty.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
I wonder how we would compare seeing how BH and I are nearly the same height (I'm 6'1" or 74 inches/188 cm). My humerus is about 38 cm or 15 inches (shoulder to elbow). I wonder how Bob might compare with my 35.81% of total body height from the ends of my hands to the ground. 
to grant a request of yours.
