Merged Skeptics vs. Knowers/Believers

[kitakaze]

Because we haven't looked everywhere, they are capable of detecting and avoiding our detection efforts, and most of the real scientific community treats this subject like a joke.

It does not matter how advanced they are, a species can not remove all physical evidence of its evolution and existence from the planet on which it lives. That species can not take ray guns and to the Earth and remove all archaeological and paleontological evidence of themselves.

Are native americans who live on reservations subject to the same 'facts of life' that say Donald Trump is?

Again there seems to be more cognitive dissonance. Yes, indigenous peoples living in reservations are subject to the same facts of life as affluent people living in riches. They will all die and they will all have some of their physical remains of their bodies, living areas, and technology preserved in the earth over millenia. In fact, Donald Trump should have a better chance of the his existence being preserved in some physical fashion by all the junk he has.

If there really is another sentient species sharing our planet, we should find physical evidence of them.

 

[Nonpareil]

Because I 'know' what 'we' are capable of...

...while I know of none of 'their' limitations.

I'm like a native american who just saw a conquistador get off of a ship and shoot an animal with a gun, and my arrow literally bounced off his armor.

His technology was beyond my own. This is all that I can conclude, without further investigation.

False analogy. You saw this, but did not interact with it; you have no way of knowing its properties other than what you visually observed. And the eyes can be fooled very, very easily.

Because we haven't looked everywhere, they are capable of detecting and avoiding our detection efforts, and most of the real scientific community treats this subject like a joke.

Yes. While I explain why, would you care for any tea?

 

[Tapio]

Marduk, thank you! In my eyes the Rogue River aircraft looked like a blimp the first time I saw its picture. Maybe Kitakaze or Rramjet would be so kind to explain if this possibility was accounted for in the case study...

so are you surprised that there would be a very common aircraft that matches all the descriptions of the rogue river ufo and was known to be operating in that area at the time, or would you still like to pretend that this is the most mystifying ufo of all time ?

If you read the very same part of my post you quoted, you'd know I'm not surprised one bit. As I said, although I am still 'on the fence', both of my feet are clearly hanging on the non-believers side...slowly feeling the pull of gravity.... It will take a fairly hefty pull from the believers side to get me shift the position of my feet!

 

[Correa Neto]

Whooo boy! Have you a thing or two to learn about science! Dogmas abound! And which particular theory of paradigm shift do you suppose you might subscribe to... Popper, Lakatos, Marx...or perhaps it is Kuhn? Misunderstood? THAT is an understatement!

Am I supposed to have been impressed by such a shallow answer? Am I supposed to have been impressed by your diversion attempt?
You just provided one more tidbit of evidence regarding your poor understanding of science - and now one can add philosophy to the list.
Want to dig deeper in to this specific issue? Let's go to the philosophy section and see your cards.

I will say it once again- its not skeptic's fault that UFO evidence presented so far is flawed.

Got something better inside your sleeves?
Come on, show us your cards!
Stop whining, stop trying to create suspense for your grand finale. We've seen it all before.
Show us your evidence - good, reliable evidence. Got some?
I bet the answer is no.

 

[Correa Neto]

I get your drift, thanks.

But I feel as long as the highlited part is in relation with the title of the thread and the OP (which it is in a most profound manner), we can allow a little overlap here and there, eh?

OK, point taken. However it seems the odds of this path being followed are small.

Oh, and please don't bring in any p-zombies! Its not haloween yet...

 

[Tapio]

Oh, and please don't bring in any p-zombies! Its not haloween yet...

P-zombie?



ETA: Ah...got it, not to worry

 

[tsig]

I don't know what the are...nor what their real motive is...

They 'seem' to be interested in studying/looking after us, but there's no way to know or test that.

If there's no way to know it what makes you say it?

 

[Marduk]

If you read the very same part of my post you quoted, you'd know I'm not surprised one bit. As I said, although I am still 'on the fence', both of my feet are clearly hanging on the non-believers side...slowly feeling the pull of gravity.... It will take a fairly hefty pull from the believers side to get me shift the position of my feet!

ah yes sorry about that, it was a general "you" to the "knowers" who I expect are about to claim that its far more likely to be an alien spacecraft designed to look like a blimp from a different galaxy rather than a real blimp from just down the road

 

[King of the Americas]

If there really is another sentient species sharing our planet, we should find physical evidence of them.

Again, we CAN'T find Osama, whom the world's most technologically advanced military forces have spent over a decade looking for...and have produced NOTHING.

Things in the business of hiding CAN do so, rather easily, it would seem.

Question, how much of the deep ocean floor have we explored?

---

Is a radar image physical evidence?

 

[King of the Americas]

If there's no way to know it what makes you say it?

Because we DO have tales/anecdotes of people who say they've been "tagged and released".

Religious texts claimed these things are guardians or onlookers of a sort.

Millions daily "Pray to God, in hopes that help will arrive"...

I think it is likely that these things were based on something.

 

[King of the Americas]

False analogy. You saw this, but did not interact with it; you have no way of knowing its properties other than what you visually observed. And the eyes can be fooled very, very easily.

So the native american, had he not shot his bow, wouldn't REALLY have seen the dude shoot a gun...?

What good are 'scouts' in military warfare, if all they do is look at stuff, and report back to HQ???

"You SAY they have re-enforced their positions with artillery!? Where are the pictures?"

"I have none sir."

"What!?!? Did you bring back ANY physical evidence of this 'supposed' artillery?"

"No, sir."

"Well, then we'll proceed as planned."

"But SIR, we'll be mowed down!"

"What kind of military leader would I be if I accepted anecdotal evidence!?!?"

---

 

[StevenCalder]

So the native american, had he not shot his bow, wouldn't REALLY have seen the dude shoot a gun...?

What good are 'scouts' in military warfare, if all they do is look at stuff, and report back to HQ???

"You SAY they have re-enforced their positions with artillery!? Where are the pictures?"

"I have none sir."

"What!?!? Did you bring back ANY physical evidence of this 'supposed' artillery?"

"No, sir."

"Well, then we'll proceed as planned."

"But SIR, we'll be mowed down!"

"What kind of military leader would I be if I accepted anecdotal evidence!?!?"

---

Yes if a scout comes back claiming to have seen enemy artillery the commanders are probably going to believe him, they know enemy artillery exists...

If the scout comes back saying he saw an angel, aliens, giant 1400 meter high talking bananas or anything else we have no confirmatory evidence for he is probably going to get strange looks.

But I suspect you were aware of this distinction.

 

[Babbylonian]

So, KotA, you don't see any difference between reporting the existence of recognizable, known-to-be-manmade weapons of war and reporting the existence of amazing ships in the air that were not built by humans?

Yet, still, military commanders who don't understand that their scouts could be mistaken (particularly on the exact strength of the enemy) and fail to account for that possibility in their plans would be doing a lousy job.

In other words, saying that anecdotes do not constitute evidence is not to say that all anecdotes are mistakes or lies.

 

[kitakaze]

Again, we CAN'T find Osama, whom the world's most technologically advanced military forces have spent over a decade looking for...and have produced NOTHING.

I'm sorry, KotA, but that is another analogy of yours that is confusing and misleading. I'm sorry, we're you referring to the man for whom's existence is a proven fact. I mean, is there a paucity of reliable evidence for Osama?

Things in the business of hiding CAN do so, rather easily, it would seem.

This seems like more strong cognitive dissonance to me. Absence of evidence is evidence of successful hiding? Once again, how does a sentient species that evolved from previous forms of life, became technologically capable, and surpassed humans in that regard on our own planet not leave any archeological or paleontological evidence of it's existence? Just try and suss it out in your head. Imagine we were going to try and do that. Where would we even start to remove all reliable evidence of our presence on Earth?

Question, how much of the deep ocean floor have we explored?

Why am I feeling all James Cameron-y? Somebody get Ed Harris in here and we'll sort it out. Let's get the question straight, though, are you talking about the bottom of the sea now or the bottom of the sea from eons ago? I'm talking about an entire sentient, technological species evolution. I can easily point out to you plenty of places that contain the evidence of a species passing that was then on the bottom of the sea but now is on dry land.

Is a radar image physical evidence?

Show me the one you had in mind and we'll talk about it.

 

[King of the Americas]

It does not matter how advanced they are, a species can not remove all physical evidence of its evolution and existence from the planet on which it lives. That species can not take ray guns and to the Earth and remove all archaeological and paleontological evidence of themselves.

Like building sights featuring super hard stone, with precision cuts, that bronze age chisels couldn't accomplish?

Again there seems to be more cognitive dissonance. Yes, indigenous peoples living in reservations are subject to the same facts of life as affluent people living in riches. They will all die and they will all have some of their physical remains of their bodies, living areas, and technology preserved in the earth over millenia. In fact, Donald Trump should have a better chance of the his existence being preserved in some physical fashion by all the junk he has.

You think that native americans living on a reservation face the same 'facts of life', that D. Trump does...? That seems like a really ignorant thing to postulate.

If there really is another sentient species sharing our planet, we should find physical evidence of them.

Not if you attribute their works to 'us'...

 

[King of the Americas]

in other words, saying that anecdotes do not constitute evidence is not to say that all anecdotes are mistakes or lies.

Agreed.

 

[King of the Americas]

Yes if a scout comes back claiming to have seen enemy artillery the commanders are probably going to believe him, they know enemy artillery exists...

If the scout comes back saying he saw an angel, aliens, giant 1400 meter high talking bananas or anything else we have no confirmatory evidence for he is probably going to get strange looks.

But I suspect you were aware of this distinction.

But what is the Chief to believe upon hearing his scout's report of- shinny chested men carrying bang sticks that kill instantly, that arrived on moving cloud covered islands...?

 

[StevenCalder]

But what is the Chief to believe upon hearing his scout's report of- shinny chested men carrying bang sticks that kill instantly, that arrived on moving cloud covered islands...?

He probably wouldn't believe it because its so far from his frame of reference until his men showed him a bang stick, or a shiny chested white man.

All were asking for is a bang stick or a shiny chested man.

 

[Marduk]

Like building sights featuring super hard stone, with precision cuts, that bronze age chisels couldn't accomplish?

unsupported assertion again
what sights (did you mean sites)
what hard stone
what precision cuts

?

 

[King of the Americas]

He probably wouldn't believe it because its so far from his frame of reference until his men showed him a bang stick, or a shiny chested white man.

All were asking for is a bang stick or a shiny chested man.

"But they ARE coming, Chief. I saw them and some of their weapons at work We NEED to call all the warriors back to the bunker, and begin making our defenses ready...!"

"Well, we know you are a good scout and all, but what you are saying is impossible. Maybe you need a rest, you've been on look-out for a long time. Have you been drinking?"

"No, Chief. We are wasting time! We NEED to prepare the defenses, NOW!"

"I am not convinced, go and bring back a bang stick, or a shinny thing of them and we'll talk..."

"But Chief!"

"No buts, bring back some real 'evidence', and NO MORE tall tales!"