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Million to one apple is half red, half green

I don't understand your question.

My point is that with 4 o'clocks (which are not apples), you see half-and-half flowers pretty regularly.

I'm skeptical of two points: that this is a mutation in apples that has either never occurred before or that happens only to one in a million apples.

One in a million is a relatively high frequency, so I would have seen another half-and-half apple before this. According to this page, in 1997 worldwide apple production was 44.7 million metric tonnes.

If this were a one in a million apple, we'd likely have 44.7 metric tonnes of these half-and-half apples annually. That's a lot of apples!

Read the sites posted about this. It seems that it is actual a regression of a mutation in part of the fruit, not a new mutation. And it is only in certain varieties of apples that his happens. So there might well be tons of fruit not unlike this, but if they got sent to the juicer or what ever, instead of being selected as the pretty ones to go to market how would you know?
 
Read the sites posted about this. It seems that it is actual a regression of a mutation in part of the fruit, not a new mutation. And it is only in certain varieties of apples that his happens. So there might well be tons of fruit not unlike this, but if they got sent to the juicer or what ever, instead of being selected as the pretty ones to go to market how would you know?

Because for one thing, I have seen well over a million apples in my lifetime so I would have expected to see one myself. Secondly, many millions of apples pass human eyes, and a perfectly half-and-half one would be remarked on--especially via the interwebs.

The point I was making is that one-in-a-million apples should occur pretty frequently. 1:1,000,000 is not such high odds when we deal in nearly 50 million metric tonnes of apples per year.

However. . .

JoeTheJuggler: It's only ignorant journalists that refer to it as the 'million to one apple' - see previous post - it's not attributed to any expert they interviewed. The only one that seems to have mentioned any numbers specifically said this example would be very much rarer than one in a million.

OK, but the part I bolded is not true. The OP even used the one-in-a-million in the title of this thread. I guarantee you plenty of people other than "ignorant journalists" have repeated that figure.

Also, the article linked in the journal actually does attribute the figure to "experts":
Experts believe that the odds of finding an apple with such a perfect line between the green and the red are more than a million to one.

The "more than" gives them leeway, but if they believe it's actually a couple orders of magnitude more rare, they would have used a number other than a million. If I said the odds against being dealt a royal flush in standard draw poker were "more than 100 to 1" I'd say that's wrong too, even though technically it's correct.
 
Now, go back and look at the dramatic color demarcation in the almost cartoonish version that was submitted for our review in the OP.

Someone's taking the piss.

~Dr. Imago

I think that the images you just posted look almost identical to those of the OP, with the exception of the apple varieties involved. The slightly wiggly line appears to be just as sharp in both cases, the only difference is that in one you've got a red apple and a primarily red streaked apple and in the other there is a red apple and a green apple. Visually the second version is more striking, but I'm not sure how this becomes 'cartoonish.'

Your insistence that the person in the story is lying doesn't do your argument any credit either. What you have provided, quite successfully, is a means by which the apple COULD have been faked. You have not shown that it was any more clearly than anyone else demonstrated that it was a chimera. The only way I can think of that the matter could be decided definitively is to cut the thing apart and compare the halves to see whether they are actually different (how you could tell the difference beyond some sort of detailed genetic analysis, I don't know, but if you have any other ideas, I'd love to hear them.)

You have continued to use the argument that because the person produced a 50/50 apple and claims that it happened naturally, they must produce further evidence of it. That would be fine IF you went on to say that you were unconvinced and would remain that way. However, you go on to make your own assertion that it was artificially produced, a positive argument of your own. When you went beyond saying that you weren't convinced it was natural to the idea that you were convinced it was artificial, you started a whole new line of argument.

Where is your evidence that your argument is correct? I don't mean evidence that shows it could have been true, that much you've already provided. The problem is that the competing argument is also reasonably possible. An intellectually honest person should realize at this point that there is simply no way of knowing which is true without further information about the apple in question.

If this were something like the crop circles you mentioned earlier, I would be on your side. In that case there is no reasonable natural means by which the thing could have occurred, so it would be foolish to assume that they were anything other than manmade without some serious evidence for that fact (assuming that the confessions of the original pranksters didn't exist.) In this case, however, we do have evidence of other existing apple chimeras and we do have people knowledgeable about the fruit farming who are saying that it's rare but not impossible.
 
But... just one more thing...

Go back to the original photo submitted and look very carefully where the lines fall on the apple. They are not in the ridges, where the natural chimeras fall.

I'm not trying to harp, here.

There's a lot of potential for a lot of things. I see people (on fortunately rare occasion) who are able to fake real illnesses so well that they get fully treated (including a story I heard from a colleague who had a patient actually - yes, actually - blood-let himself to get admitted for a work-up). Does this mean that no patients present to the hospital anemic and need a work-up? Does this mean that the homeless man who's admitted to the Emergency Department for the 10th time in the past 60 days complaining of chest pain is not really having a heart attack this time? Of course not.

This apple is too good. That's all I'm saying. I smell B.S. And, if I was a gambling man, I'd say someone is taking the piss here (how many times do I have to say it?).

There, is that "hedgy" enough for you?

~Dr. Imago
 
Because for one thing, I have seen well over a million apples in my lifetime so I would have expected to see one myself. Secondly, many millions of apples pass human eyes, and a perfectly half-and-half one would be remarked on--especially via the interwebs.

Where have you seen these apples? If it is not on the trees then they were picked and sorted before you had a chance to see them. These are the kind of fruit that don't go on the shelves, they only let the pretty fruit in. For example the EU until recently had a law against ugly fruit.

See link
 
But... just one more thing...

Go back to the original photo submitted and look very carefully where the lines fall on the apple. They are not in the ridges, where the natural chimeras fall.
...

~Dr. Imago
I don't think apple sections are all that easy to distinguish without cutting into the apple and I don't think you can see them in that image. I think the multiple other examples look the same.
 
But... just one more thing...

Go back to the original photo submitted and look very carefully where the lines fall on the apple. They are not in the ridges, where the natural chimeras fall.

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by ridges. In the OP's image, there are only 3 bumps on the bottom of the apple, they don't have much of anything to do with the petals of the flower from what I can see on any of the apples in my fridge or on my trees. They range in number from 0 (that is, 1 continuous, smoothly curved apple) to 5 (with the sides of the apple ridged slightly, almost like a pumpkin.) The OP's apple and the other one (that seems to be an accepted chimera) really don't look different to me beyond their colors, whether it's the fraction of the apple that is different, the place of the division, or the sharpness/straightness of the division. This is all personal opinion, of course.

This apple is too good. That's all I'm saying. I smell B.S. And, if I was a gambling man, I'd say someone is taking the piss here (how many times do I have to say it?).

There, is that "hedgy" enough for you?

~Dr. Imago

I agree, if there were going to be a fake, it would look this good. I really will try to replicate this next summer too (I have a lot of time on my hands, and it looks kind of interesting.) It won't really prove anything, of course, but still.

Oh yeah, and you really don't need to say 'taking the piss' anymore. I get it. :D
 
I don't think apple sections are all that easy to distinguish without cutting into the apple and I don't think you can see them in that image. I think the multiple other examples look the same.

You can't. I can.

:duck:

(Did I mention it has been a long week?)

~Dr. Imago
 
If you take a branch from one variety of apple tree, my understanding is that you can graft it on another tree, so that you then have a tree that produces different apple varieties on different branches.

What happens to fruit that grow from flowers that sprout right at the graft?
 
If you take a branch from one variety of apple tree, my understanding is that you can graft it on another tree, so that you then have a tree that produces different apple varieties on different branches.

What happens to fruit that grow from flowers that sprout right at the graft?

This is fairly easy to do, but at the point of the graft you wouldn't normally have any buds. The point where the scion and stock come together is typically a piece of straight branch, and the buds usually form at a fork or along the growing tips of the branches, depending on the fruit involved. A normal graft produces a pretty healthy scar and is not going to be where the fruit grows though.
 
Are you sure. If you're 50 that's still over 50 apples a day, which seems a lot. Unless you're a greengrocer, of course.

I'm not quite 50. I see several hundred every time I go to the grocery store (perhaps twice a week).

Also, as I mentioned, if this happened once in a million times, there would be thousands of these things found every year, and I would assume someone would have thought it interesting enough to post on the interwebs. (Heck, even actual news outlets have done stories on more trivial matters.)

If it were a one-in-a-million thing, I expect the grocery store would have very small section alongside the Granny Smith, the Golden Delicious, the Red Delicious, the McIntoshes, called something like "The Half-and-Half" and charge a higher price for them rather than simply weeding them out as "ugly" and consigning them to the apple juice makers.

So again, I don't believe that it's a one-in-a-million thing, if it's even real.
 
Dr. Imago, you have cited three apparently suspicious features of the red-gold 'half-and-half' apple:
  • Proportions of the two colours
  • Appearance of the boundary
  • Colour contrast
I believe your objections are all invalid, and here's why.

First, the colour division is not half-and-half. In the Telegraph picture it's angled to make it appear almost so, but one of the BBC pictures clearly shows that's it's not:
picture.php


In fact, the proportions are very similar to the Fruit Forum Royal Gala example you posted:
picture.php


This 1948 paper from the Journal of Heredity, plus this and this, provide a crash course in plant chimerism. The points to bear in mind are:
  • The apical meristem (which produces onward growth of the shoot, as well as flowers and fruits), is composed of distinct primary cell layers. These are labelled (starting from the outside) as LI, LII and LIII.
  • These layers persist to some extent as different regions and tissues in the flower and fruit.
  • A mutation can affect one or more of the layers.
  • There are different patterns of chimera, depending partly on which layers are involved.
  • Horticulturists are especially interested in chimerism within flowers and fruits, as this gives a clue to the derivation of flower and fruit regions from each layer.
  • The general pattern is that LI gives rise to a thin epidermis, LII to a subepidermal layer and part of the interior, including the seeds, and LIII to the rest of the interior and the stalk (though my sources aren't entirely in agreement). The skin colour of the mature fruit is usually from the outer region of LII, rather than the thin LI layer.
  • However, this pattern is not always followed. Cells from one layer may be replaced with cells from another, in variable regions of the fruit.

From the Heredity paper:
When a replacement is partial, the changes may be sectorial (mericlinal) and involve areas of various shapes and dimensions.


One type of deviation from the usual development pattern is that the coloured skin can derive from LI rather than LII. A chimera can have part of its colour from each of the two layers, in a segmented pattern:
In rare instances intense coloration appearing sectorially on some fruits, otherwise normally colored, may be taken as due to the presence of a factor for a sport to intense color in the L-I layer.
On the skin of sports with intense colored fruits sharply delimited dull-color sectors have occasionally been observed. In such cases it would seem that such a sectoring occurs when, as stated above, the subepidermal tissue is in part derived from L-I.


The paper gives another example of chimeral segmentation with about the same proportions as our 'suspect' apple:
picture.php


The fruit appears to be neatly divided into thirds - except that one of the 'thirds' is bigger than the others. In this case it's a deliberately cultivated 'Sweet and Sour' chimera, which is a sport of a (sour) Rhode Island Greening. The mutation is assumed to be in LII, and produces a sweet taste, as well as a growth pattern different from the original type. The author provides a diagram of his suggested distribution of the regions:
picture.php


As you can see, no hint of five-fold segmentation.

To summarise, there is no reason to expect the segment proportions to be multiples of 1/5. (Another rather obvious point is that, even if the chimera begins in this proportion, it may not remain so in the mature fruit, as the genetically-distinct segments may grow at different rates.)

Moving on to the appearance of the boundary, it is completely consistent with the Fruit Forum examples (below) - the 'waviness' is very similar:
picture.php
picture.php
picture.php


This can best be seen from BBC image 3:
picture.php


Here is an enlarged section, (first image), followed by the Fruit Forum examples:
picture.php
picture.php
picture.php


BBC image 2 (unwaxed) shows the russeting to be mostly continuous across the boundary:
picture.php


As for the dramatic colour contrast, how about this one from the Royal Horticultural Society? (click next under the second image). Again, look at the boundary:
picture.php


And red-gold 'half-and-half' apples are not unknown - I have already provided links to two other cases (though they don't have pictures) here and here.

The proportions of the two colours, the details of the boundary and the colour contrast are all perfectly plausible, and (separately) resemble other, indisputably genuine examples - which is, of course, what we would expect if it's a clever hoax!

Dr. Imago, I challenge all your claimed indications of fakery, and I believe I have provided sufficient evidence to refute them. There's nothing in the apple's appearance that points to a fake.

Bear in mind that the grower has been producing apples for decades. If it's a hoax (which I doubt) then he's trying to fool horticultural experts, so it has to be exactly right. I've seen no convincing explanation how it could be done. Nobody has addressed the point that it's a Golden Delicious (the local agricultural college, which examined it, seems not to have disputed this), so it would have to be red part that's faked - also there's the continuous russeting across the boundary. In any case, I'm inclined to apply Ockham's razor - it looks like a very rare but natural example of a particularly spectacular chimera - and that's what it probably is.
 
Wow! I applaud your extensive efforts on refuting an assertion that, quite frankly, I have barely given much thought since my previous string of posts.

Nonetheless, seeing as neither of us will actually be able to examine the apple in question, and therefore validate or disprove the authenticity of the same, at best you can only declare a stalemate.

I'm willing to concede that.

(Although, I will still persist in my assertion this particular example is :rule10 , and that someone is clearly taking the piss).

:)

~Dr. Imago
 
Lucky's research has convinced me - great job, by the way!

It seems to me that an experienced grower will have seen a few interesting chimeras in his time, and has picked this one as a particularly fine example. Presumably the local paper got involved, others, who hadn't seen chimerism of this kind, got all excited, and suddenly it's news.
 
Nonetheless, seeing as neither of us will actually be able to examine the apple in question, and therefore validate or disprove the authenticity of the same, at best you can only declare a stalemate.
Well I suppose I could take a trip to Colaton Raleigh (where, apparently, the apple resides in the grower's fridge), but I don't think I'm quite that obsessed dedicated.

... hmm, seems it's only about 250 miles ... :)
 
I'm not quite 50. I see several hundred every time I go to the grocery store (perhaps twice a week).

Also, as I mentioned, if this happened once in a million times, there would be thousands of these things found every year, and I would assume someone would have thought it interesting enough to post on the interwebs. (Heck, even actual news outlets have done stories on more trivial matters.)

If it were a one-in-a-million thing, I expect the grocery store would have very small section alongside the Granny Smith, the Golden Delicious, the Red Delicious, the McIntoshes, called something like "The Half-and-Half" and charge a higher price for them rather than simply weeding them out as "ugly" and consigning them to the apple juice makers.

So again, I don't believe that it's a one-in-a-million thing, if it's even real.

So it would have to make it to the store for you to see it. Again totally ignoring the likelihood that these would get culled out of those going to stores.
 
So it would have to make it to the store for you to see it. Again totally ignoring the likelihood that these would get culled out of those going to stores.

Yes, I am leaving out the possibility that a perfectly half-and-half red/green apple would not be sold the public.

And actually, if these were 1 in a million you'd have to cull out something close to 50 million metric tonnes of half-and-half apples every year.

My point was, that for things that occur in very large numbers, 1 in a million is not such a rare thing.
 
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