Is Anorexia really a disease?

A.A.Alfie said:
And I repeat:
You fail to address the main issue here which for me seems to be a general inability to see reason. You may not have noticed but you stand alone in your beliefs from; those in this forum, mental health experts, other experts in the field, medical experts, psychiatric and phycological experts, world health bodies and english language experts.



Just because you and other share a belief, does not make it true; all it is is a belief. I apologise for insinuating you are a troll if indeed you aren't. Here's a chance to prove it - address the evidence and balanced part of the arguments that have been put before you and quell all our suspicions.
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I'm gonna repeat what I said to Kariboo. I started this thread to get info. I stated my beliefs and prior knowledge to give people an understanding of my position. I'm not looking for a flame war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28Internet%29

You came to this thread late and I think you are committing the mistake that a lot of people are also doing in thinking that I'm trying to convince everyone of my belief. So I'm gonna stick with Dancing David since he seems to be one of the few who are actually posting links and giving me info to research.
 
I know I'm late to the thread but I've followed it somewhat (may have missed some of the middle).

I can understand why Epok might have the idea that anorexia is more a lifestyle choice and not a disease because in some cases it is.

It can also be a pathological response to trauma, as with a friend of mine who stopped eating after being raped and continued that behavior for years, along with therapy to cope with the experience. In her case it was psychologically triggered. I became anorexic for awhile as a result of a series of personal crises; I was severely underweight and my periods stopped for over a year and my doctor called me "borderline anorexic." Borderline, I think, because I was aware that I was too thin.

It has to be considered a legitimate disorder when you consider the fact that people die from it. When people who are skeletal are convinced they're fat and won't eat even when they're hospitalized, that's pathological. Obviously that is not a lifestyle choice, and to consider the label anorexic to be an "excuse" would be ridiculous. These are people who at some point have lost the ability to see their bodies realistically and sometimes it costs them their lives.

On the other hand, there are people who choose anorexic behavior deliberately in order to maintain an ultra-thin body weight. In these cases, it's not a disease, it's a choice, and so you have "pro-anorexia" web sites that teach young girls how to go on starvation diets to be thin, and Hollywood actors and high fashion models who live on cigarettes and Diet Pepsi and feel pressured to maintain a severely calorie restricted diet. Some of them manage to get thin enough that the rest of the world considers them to look anorexic, but they otherwise maintain a normal and realistic body concept. For some of them, though, it seems to degenerate into the disease anorexia nervosa, where they need medical intervention.

I think it's complicated. Because of the different types of anorexic behavior in the world, I can understand why people could be confused by it.

Epok, I think you have to take it on a case by case basis. Sometimes it IS serious, it is a disease, sometimes not.
 
Epok said:
I don't think that lack of willpower is the only cause of addiction or even anorexia. Like Dancing David said, there are a few things that go along with it like depression and such. But I do think that willpower is the best way to control it.
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based on what?

Trying to cure a heroin addiction with methadone isn't a very good idea. You're just trading one addiction for a new one.
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neither is trying to cure it by telling people they should just have more willpower

And I think people are forgetting the point of the OP. I didn't come here to convince people that anorexia isn't a disease. I gave my opinion and asked for info about it. If the info doesn't look that good then I'm gonna question it and ask for more.
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Thing is that you are dismissing information because you don't like it, not because you have a legitimate reason to do so. It would be nice if you commented on the information provided and told us what your issue with it is. Or be more specific about what info you are looking for.

But some people would rather take offense to my opinion and tell me I'm a jerk without passing along any good info.
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some people don't want to do your homework, including you
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The I am completely at a loss.
The world health organisation was cited - have you reviewed any of their data as suggested or do I need to actually provide the website.
They are the experts and I for one am quite comfortable with that. If you wish to reject their arguments and diagnoses then that is entirely your perogative, but if you genuinely want debate and discussion, please offer something other than anecdotal evidence. Additionally I provided a definition (that you seem to reject) for illness and provide no other to counter what is provided nor support your own stand.

What was posted was
"The world Health Organisation (WHO) recognises Alcoholism, drug addiction and AN etc all as diseases or illnesses. Can you believe this body and accept their judgement?
It seems to me that if we look at the definition of a disease they all fall into the disease category quite snuggly. Here's one definition as an example - there are 00s more
'.. an impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning..'
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Frankly, it seems to me that a lot of people have spent a lot of time and effort in trying to explain logically, medically, anecdotally, theoretically and metaphorically the reasons why your assumptions and biases are incorrect.

Please tell us what will satisfy you (or have I missed something)?"





Thanks for the info on a flame war however I belive I have contributed to your discussion meaningfully and exercise my right to reject your assertion as untrue and unfounded - but let's not get sidetracked. You have not addressed any of the constructive arguments placed in front of you and continue to avoid the actual debate. I ask - what more evidence do you need?



Am I mistaken, is there a necessity to be involved in a post early to have a valid opinion? I reviewed every and all posts prior to making one myself. I dont see the relevance or have I missed a rule?
 
Hello epok.
I felt the same way you do about mental diseases. It is hard to realize that there really is something wrong with someone, unless they are bleeding profusely, or you can otherwise see that something is wrong. The problem is that it is IN their head. All you can see it the after effects of what is going wrong. I felt that way for most of my life, until I was diagnosed with Depression at 30. I had a really hard time with it, as I grew up with my parents telling me that it's all in my head. And that was the whole problem; it IS in my head. The same way with any mental illness, anorexia included. The only person who can feel it or it's repercussions is the person currently going through it. Medicine and therapy helped me, maybe they can help your friend. The best thing you can do is get info about it, and listen if your friend wants to talk about it.

Mira
 
Thanks Mira I see what you mean. That is what has caused a lot of my confusion and callousness on the issue. Its hard to sympathize with it sometimes. I also have a lot of info to sort through so finding the time for it while dealing with all these posts is tricky.


A.A.Alfie said:
"The world Health Organisation (WHO) recognises Alcoholism, drug addiction and AN etc all as diseases or illnesses. Can you believe this body and accept their judgement?
It seems to me that if we look at the definition of a disease they all fall into the disease category quite snuggly. Here's one definition as an example - there are 00s more
'.. an impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning..'
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This has already been gone over. I have already addressed it once.

Kariboo said:
based on what?
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Experience.

Kariboo said:
neither is trying to cure it by telling people they should just have more willpower
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That is how they treat a lot of addictions in 12-Step programs. They just use a lot of filler to get to that point.

Kariboo said:
Thing is that you are dismissing information because you don't like it, not because you have a legitimate reason to do so. It would be nice if you commented on the information provided and told us what your issue with it is. Or be more specific about what info you are looking for.

some people don't want to do your homework, including you
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I'm not dismissing info that I don't like. I have commented on some of it but there is still a lot I have to get to.

And I was trying to find a circus midget to do the reading for me but those guys are friggin' lazy.

ExMinister said:
I know I'm late to the thread but I've followed it somewhat (may have missed some of the middle).

I can understand why Epok might have the idea that anorexia is more a lifestyle choice and not a disease because in some cases it is.

It can also be a pathological response to trauma, as with a friend of mine who stopped eating after being raped and continued that behavior for years, along with therapy to cope with the experience. In her case it was psychologically triggered. I became anorexic for awhile as a result of a series of personal crises; I was severely underweight and my periods stopped for over a year and my doctor called me "borderline anorexic." Borderline, I think, because I was aware that I was too thin.

It has to be considered a legitimate disorder when you consider the fact that people die from it. When people who are skeletal are convinced they're fat and won't eat even when they're hospitalized, that's pathological. Obviously that is not a lifestyle choice, and to consider the label anorexic to be an "excuse" would be ridiculous. These are people who at some point have lost the ability to see their bodies realistically and sometimes it costs them their lives.

On the other hand, there are people who choose anorexic behavior deliberately in order to maintain an ultra-thin body weight. In these cases, it's not a disease, it's a choice, and so you have "pro-anorexia" web sites that teach young girls how to go on starvation diets to be thin, and Hollywood actors and high fashion models who live on cigarettes and Diet Pepsi and feel pressured to maintain a severely calorie restricted diet. Some of them manage to get thin enough that the rest of the world considers them to look anorexic, but they otherwise maintain a normal and realistic body concept. For some of them, though, it seems to degenerate into the disease anorexia nervosa, where they need medical intervention.

I think it's complicated. Because of the different types of anorexic behavior in the world, I can understand why people could be confused by it.

Epok, I think you have to take it on a case by case basis. Sometimes it IS serious, it is a disease, sometimes not.
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Welcome to the discussion. A lot of what you say makes sense. I do agree that it is a disorder and that there is something wrong with them but trying to figure out what exactly is making someone do that to themselves is the mystery for me. I have heard of those pro-anorexia websites and they did not help my views become more sympathetic at all. I'm changing my outlook slowly but its a lot to absorb. I'll keep on truckin' though.
 
Pro-anorexia!?!? I'm sorry, but that seems a bit off. That seems a bit like pro-depression or pro-cutting...

It's been 2 years and I am still working on changing my views about mental problems. It is hard to know what to think as there are a lot of widely varying opinions out there. I'd like to say that there is a 'Best way' approach out there, but there isn't. It truly is a case by case basis, and as we are not all carbon copies, neither are our experiences. Good luck in finding what YOU need.

Mira
 
The issues of self management and responsibility are not unique to mental health in any way, nor are the issues of using a condition to manipulate people for emotional benefit. Seriously this behavior is not limited to mental health.

(Caveat: manipulation is part of social currency, we all engage in it everyday. It is the issue of extremes again.)

You can't tell I have high blood pressure just by looking at me, nor can you tell that I have sleep apnea.

So what does a doctor do to make a diagnosis? They make observations about a person's physical condition. Now there is an impression that lab tests have higher validity than patient reports, which is true in many ways, however doctor has to use both to make the best diagnosis.

When assessing mental health conditions the behavioral assessment is crucial, just asking someone 'How do you sleep?' is an opener, you also have to ask:
-when do you fall asleep
-when do you wake up
-how many times do you wake up
-how long does it take you to fall asleep
-do you sleep deeply
-are you easily roused
-do you nap during the day
-are you drowsy during the day
-are you fatigued, how often and for how long
-what is your concentration like
-is your sleep restful

And that is just a single item in a mental health assessment, there are commonly sixteen areas now that you have to assess (some of them unrelated to symptoms), so you have to be very careful to ask these questions and ask them in terms of behavior that the client can understand. It gets even harder when you get to an idea like ‘general mood’ or ahedonia.

Now when it comes to anorexia nervosa, each of the symptoms is fairly clear as are the criteria, however you have to be sure to ask the questions accurately.

Then there is the whole art of gaining rapport, judging the consistency and validity of self report and the myriad of interview issues.

You can not run a test in the office to determine how the person perceives their body image and if it is distorted, so you can't hook them up and do a body image test the way you can for hypertension or high cholesterol. That does not mean that you can't still get good information.
 
Uhh is this thread still alive?

So what is the answer: "Is Anorexia really a disease?"
 
Dr. Tobias Fünke said:
People die from it, so, yes it is.
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Following that thought slightly, does that make suicide a disease? :confused:

/nitpick

I thought the distinction of "disorder" answered the mail perfectly to the OP question, in language consistent with that used by those who treat behavioral disorders.

When the precision of language is available, why do people so often depart from a concise meaning and slide into the more nebulous and general?

Behavior specialists took the effort to arrive at the classification of "disorder" for a variety of behavioral problems. IMO, it was an effort worth taking.

/nitpick
 
Darth Rotor said:
Following that thought slightly, does that make suicide a disease? :confused:
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No, suicide is an action that can be an indication of a disease. (the same way that in this thread "not eating" is an indication of AN, but not sufficient for the diagnosis... consider: a person could have stopped eating because of loss of appetite or stomach pain, &c.)

Suicidal ideations and genuine suicide attempts can be an indication of clinical depression.

Self-injury or suicide gestures that could have been fatal can be an indication of disorders such as borderline personality disorder or psychosis. (eg: drilling a hole in one's head to let the voices out)
 
JJM 777 said:
Uhh is this thread still alive?

So what is the answer: "Is Anorexia really a disease?"
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It's a disorder.

My impression is that Epok has had time to clarify the purpose of the original post, and the actual question being asked has been updated.

Epok appears to have been ultimately inquring about the level of personal accountability that AN patients should be assigned, rather than the clinical definition of disease or disorder.

Whether a person has a disease or disorder does not tell us everything about the person's accountability. (eg: consider a person with lung cancer. Maybe they're genetically predisposed; maybe they smoked. The diagnosis is the same)
 
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Mira said:
Pro-anorexia!?!? I'm sorry, but that seems a bit off. That seems a bit like pro-depression or pro-cutting...

It's been 2 years and I am still working on changing my views about mental problems. It is hard to know what to think as there are a lot of widely varying opinions out there. I'd like to say that there is a 'Best way' approach out there, but there isn't. It truly is a case by case basis, and as we are not all carbon copies, neither are our experiences. Good luck in finding what YOU need.

Mira
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There are websites that actually give advice on how to be anorexic. That is what ExMinister was refering to. And what are you talking about what I need? I'm doin' alright.
 
blutoski said:
It's a disorder.

My impression is that Epok has had time to clarify the purpose of the original post, and the actual question being asked has been updated.

Epok appears to have been ultimately inquring about the level of personal accountability that AN patients should be assigned, rather than the clinical definition of disease or disorder.

Whether a person has a disease or disorder does not tell us everything about the person's accountability. (eg: consider a person with lung cancer. Maybe they're genetically predisposed; maybe they smoked. The diagnosis is the same)
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I think that sums it up pretty well but semantics sure are fun aren't they? And in response to post #254, I think Darth Rotor was being sarcastic in asking if suicide was a disease. Dr. Tobias Funke was trying to say that just because someone dies from it then that makes it a disease. Its funny how people lambasted me for not using critical thinking skills but not many found anything wrong in that statement made by Tobias.
 
If a disease is something you die from, then life is a disease.
As far as I know, life is always, invariably fatal.
 
Belz... said:
I'm sure I can make a website about how to get the flu. Does that make it NOT a disease, now ? Or did I misinterpret what you meant ?
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Epok was commenting on my reference to pro-anorexia web sites here. Flu is a virus, so it's quite a different thing. Flu is always a virus and a disease and there is no gray area. Pro-anorexia web sites are there for people who think anorexia (the next-to-starving method of eating/not eating) makes sense as a weight loss method. On the other hand, some of them are really scary with their photos of emaciated women who are supposedly attractive and probably serve to support people who really do have a potentially dangerous eating disorder. Kind of makes you shudder.

It's a fact that anorexic behavior can also be found in people who are not body dysmorphic and are able to maintain an extremely low body weight for many years without problems. I have known at least four women like that. They eat next to nothing. They look bony thin. But they are otherwise healthy, able to function just fine, hold down jobs, have children. Most people who meet them think they are anorexic, as in the eating disorder.

I just don't think it's a disorder until it's dangerous, and the kind of anorexic behavior I'm talking about is not dangerous. It goes without saying that some anorexics have an eating disorder that is deadly if they don't get treatment for it. My point is that it muddies the water when it comes to understanding this issue and it can make people think the whole phenomena is a lifestyle choice, when that's obviously not the case.
 
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