Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

[A'isha]

the Hawaii newspapers got the information used for birth announcements directly from the hospitals,


Fact or opinion?

The Hawaii newspapers in question themselves sure seem to think that it's fact.

[T]he first mention of Barack Obama ever published — a tiny, one-line birth notice in the Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961, edition of The Honolulu Advertiser:

"Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama, 6085 Kalanianaole Highway, son, Aug. 4."

The exact same notice appeared the following day in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin. The numerous birth announcements above and below the Obama listing also were identical in both papers, which were unaffiliated, competing publications.

Advertiser columnist and former Star-Bulletin managing editor Dave Shapiro was not at either paper in 1961, but he remembers how the birth notices process worked years later when both papers were jointly operated by the Hawaii Newspaper Agency — which no longer exists.

"Those were listings that came over from the state Department of Health," he said. "They would send the same thing to both papers."

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

chicken

So, where's that 1 million dollars to defend against the birther lawsuits? It isn't there. No, it isn't. It says that Obama and co. payed a 1.4 million to Perkins Cole. It says a lawyer defended Obama against the birther lawsuits. It doesn't say that Obama has spent 1 million bucks defending himself against birther lawsuits. (For comparison: I spent 65 dollars at the grocery store yesterday. I bought chicken at the grocery store yesterday. How much did I spend on chicken at the grocery story yesterday? Why did I need so much chicken?)

A great example. TY

All 50 states have different filing requirements, both for the primary process and for the general election. it takes a ton of lawyers to take care of the paperwork. What did McCain and Clinton spend? I bet it's a lot of $$ as well. The birthers' "logic" reminds me of the 9/11 twoofers and the Pentagon surveillance camera films. the FBI checked all the films from surveillance cameras nearby. I think the twoofers use the figure of 85 for the cameras. Most of the films didn't show squat but the investigators had to check. in the twoofers' world this magically became 85 films of the plane hitting the Pentagon. They've not been released! WHAT IS THE FBI HIDING! (nothing, they were released, and show zilch) Somehow, magically, a national campaigns total legal bill for a year-long campaign is now being applied to one legal battle AFTER the election.

FWIW, I read in one article about the birthers (forget which one, sorry) that at leas tone of the lawyers filing on Obama's behalf against the birthers is working for free because he's so offended by the lawsuits.

Birthers just can't stand that a black man was elected President, period.

 

[kookbreaker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EinxdXg_-k

OBAMA Birth Certificate Trial Update of Oct 5

Birthers nuts?

I don't think so.

Birthers are nuttier than a squirrel stash. They are the most stupid, arrogant and incompetent group of people in the US today second only to truthers.

They are also morons, led by a complete and utter moron. They are so idiotic and moronic that they find conspiracies to explain their failures rather than own up to the fact that they are morons. They are a class of people for whom trepanation would result in an improvement.

The birthers are such dumb***** that you have to wonder it Poe's law is in application. Between groups calling themselves 'teabaggers' and the birther leader being named 'Orly' I have to wonder if soon they will jump out and say 'thanks for helping us show how many people and news sources would take this dreck seriously!"

 

[NoZed Avenger]

Birthers are nuttier than a squirrel stash. They are the most stupid, arrogant and incompetent group of people in the US today second only to truthers.

They are also morons, led by a complete and utter moron. They are so idiotic and moronic that they find conspiracies to explain their failures rather than own up to the fact that they are morons. They are a class of people for whom trepanation would result in an improvement.

The birthers are such dumb***** that you have to wonder it Poe's law is in application. Between groups calling themselves 'teabaggers' and the birther leader being named 'Orly' I have to wonder if soon they will jump out and say 'thanks for helping us show how many people and news sources would take this dreck seriously!"

I have to take issue with a portion of your post. In your first paragraph, I think you need a comma or some form of punctuation after the word "today."

 

[Meadmaker]

As an aside, I haven't followed this story very much, because it isn't really worth it, but I'm curious about something. Is there any reason to believe that the State of Hawaii has any unreleased documents? (Like a "long form" birth certificate?) I believe that the answer to that is yes. I believe they have something other than the actual birth certificate that we have all seen.

Now, assuming that they have some form of record, and that it has not been publicly released, is there any reason to assume that Barack Obama has the authority to release said documents? I'm fairly certain that he has no more authority than you or I have to release documents. Could he release them if he wanted to? I suspect the answer is no, but I have no real knowledge of the matter.

I can say without doubt that there are plenty of reasons other than some presidential aspirations that he might not want to do so, even if he has the power to do so. I'll tell (part of) a story from my own life.

When I was 11 years old, I saw my birth certificate for the first time. It wasn't the certified copy that I have now. It must have been a "long form", because it had more information on it, like siblings and such. Seeing it prompted me to say, "Hey, mom. There's a mistake on my birth certificate. It says I have two brothers!"

Well, let me tell you, there was an awkward silence around the table that night.

 

[Paulhoff]

Why isn't Obama called white, he is half and half.

Because if he was, this thread wouldn't be here.

After the election I thought highly of my county, lately, that thought is falling fast.

I can't believe how many of the right-wingers have become so childlish. Obama was born in a state, McCain was born in a territory, The Panama Canal Zone, why wasn't he question on where he was born........... you think it is because he is so-called white.

Paul

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

McCain was born in a territory, The Panama Canal Zone, why wasn't he question on where he was born........... you think it is because he is so-called white.

Paul

Well, some commentators on leftwing blogs did raise that point, but were generally shouted down right away by other commentators noting that since his parents were US citizens it didn't matter. But yeah, the difference is interesting...

 

[Arus808]

Seems that boy-o has skipped over this post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5178468&postcount=39

Notice how he cowers away from someone who was born and lived in Hawaii?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Very much so, given that if the birth certificate is fake then there must be large numbers of diverse people willing to keep information secret. We are left to wonder why John McCain didn't want to disqualify his opponent. Why did the Republican National Committee spend 100s of millions of dollars when they simply could have disqualified the democratic candidate at the last minute and forced the runner up (Hillary) to take over when no money or time was left?

Oh. Oh. Oh. I know the answer to this. McCain did not bring it up because he is not a natural born US citizen either because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. They had a secret mutual agreement not to raise the issue. So there!

 

[boyntonstu]

Oh. Oh. Oh. I know the answer to this. McCain did not bring it up because he is not a natural born US citizen either because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. They had a secret mutual agreement not to raise the issue. So there!

McCain turned over all requested documents.

Why doesn't Obama?


If the situation was reversed and McCain was President, I would support releasing McCain's documents. (Had he refused)

 

[Hokulele]

If I placed your birth announcement in the newspaper today, could you claim that you are younger?

If you tried to place my birth announcement in either of the main Honolulu newspapers, you would earn some funny looks and be shown the door. Birth and marriage announcements printed in the newspapers are taken from the Department of Health (as ANTPogo noted). If you had read the actual 1961 edition that contains the birth announcement, you would have noted the title of that section, "Health Bureau Statistics".

Even if these announcements were submitted by the families, are you suggesting that the conspiracy to elect Obama as president goes back to his infancy?

 

[Paulhoff]

McCain turned over all requested documents.

Why doesn't Obama?


If the situation was reversed and McCain was President, I would support releasing McCain's documents. (Had he refused)

Who says Obama didn't. Why would anyone's in their wildest dreams think that anyone with any authority wouldn't have check that already. Please, you have to be at least 35 years old too for the job, that would be check out with a birth certificate.

I've only had to show my birth certificate once, and that was for a passport, not even the military service asked for one.

Paul

 

[Ladewig]

McCain turned over all requested documents.

Why doesn't Obama?

As long as you are still bellyaching about this issue, do you have a reason why McCain and the other republicans didn't expose President Obama?

 

[The Big Dog]

WND has reported that among the documentation not yet available for Obama includes his kindergarten records, Punahou school records, Occidental College records, Columbia University records, Columbia thesis, Harvard Law School records, Harvard Law Review articles, scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, passport, medical records, files from his years as an Illinois state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism records and adoption records.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=110114


Is a fool someone who spends $1,000,000 for no reason?

Actual transcript of telephone call to the Illinois State Bar Association:

Ring, ring,

Illinois State Bar Association, how may I direct your call?

I want a copy of the Illinois State Bar Association records for Barack Hussein Obama.

One moment please.

(on hold, voice repeating the words Osama and Obama, and HUSSEIN over and over)

Hello, are you the guy looking for Barack Obama's records?

Yes, Barack HUSSEIN Obama's records, his records.

You do know that the ISBA is a completely voluntary private organization, so how does NO work for you, is NO OK? I also see that we a have a "**** No you stupid birther idiot," i can also provide that, would that work for you? CLICK

hussein, hussein.....

Line drops dead, end of transcript.

Oh lookie here:

https://www.iardc.org/ldetail.asp?id=749792754

 

[Ricomise]

There is an aspect to this topic that I almost never hear discussed, by "birthers" or others, that makes the argument even more stupid: namely, the definition of "natural born citizen." While the Constitution doesn't define it, and to my knowledge no statute specifically speaks to that exact phrase, the first rule of statutory construction is to look at the plain meaning of the text.

The phrase "natural born citizen" seems to mean anyone who is a citizen of the U.S at birth, that is, who was a citizen when he/she was "naturally born." (As opposed to, for example, someone who becomes a citizen later via the naturalization process.)

TITLE 8, CHAPTER 12, SUBCHAPTER III, Part I, § 1401 of the United States code defines "Nationals and citizens of United States at birth."

paragraph (a) : "a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof."

Cool? If you are born in the U.S. (and not the child of a diplomat not subject to US jurisdiction), you are a citizen at birth. i.e. when you are "naturally born."

Skip a bunch of irrelevent paragraphs and we find paragraph (g): "a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years:..."

Right. So, let's just assume, for fun, that the birthers are correct, and Obama was born in Kenya. According to the biography of Ann Dunham, Obama's mother, which, as far as I know is not seriously contested, she was born Nov. 1942, in Kansas, moved around the midwest a bit during and after WWII and then to Seattle in 1956. When she graduated high scholl, in 1960, the family moved to Hawaii (which became a state in 1959.) There, she met and married Barack Obama Sr. She was 18. Let's do the math.

Obama's mom a citizen: Check. Born in Kansas.
Was physically present in US five years or more: Check.
Was physically present in the US at least two years after her 14th birthday: Check.

So, assuming she and Barack Sr. immediatly moved to Kenya, had a child, and then surreptitiously brought the child back to the U.S. and had someone forge a birth certificate, he was still, according to law, a US citizen when he was "naturally born," ergo, a "natural born citizen."

Of course, citizens born abroad get a "certification of birth abroad to a U.S. Citizen," rather than a certifcate indicating they were born in the U.S., but that's neither here nor there. Even if he was born in Kenya, Barack Obama Jr. is Constitutionally eligible to be President of the U.S.

Therefore, I respectfully request that the OP acknowledge the same unless he can produce evidence that Obama was born abroad, that his mother was not a U.S. citizen at the time of her birth, and/or that she was not physically present in the U.S. for the requisite time period prior to his birth.

(Full disclosure: I practiced immigration law for 7 1/2 years and guarentee you that a certified copy of a "Certifcate of Live Birth" issued by a State entity is considered proof of one having been born in the United States.)

 

[Brainster]

Obama's mom a citizen: Check. Born in Kansas.
Was physically present in US five years or more: Check.
Was physically present in the US at least two years after her 14th birthday: Check.

The birthers are idiots, but you're wrong. At the time Obama was born the law required five years of physical presence in the US after her 14th birthday.

 

[Thunder]

McCain turned over all requested documents.

Why doesn't Obama?


If the situation was reversed and McCain was President, I would support releasing McCain's documents. (Had he refused)

McCain was born on a military base in Panama...and I don't give a flying ####.

The man was born a citizen of the USA.

 

[Ricomise]

The birthers are idiots, but you're wrong. At the time Obama was born the law required five years of physical presence in the US after her 14th birthday.

Actually, on further review, it required 10 years total and 5 after your 16th birthday in 1961. My bad. I apologize. The damn immigration law changes so frequently, and I've been away from from it for a few years, and I sometimes mis-remember when various versions went into effect. Thank you for pointing that out.

In any event, I can state that, in my experience, all US governmental entities will accept a state-issued certified "certificate of live birth" as legal proof of birth in the US.

 

[Brainster]

Actually, on further review, it required 10 years total and 5 after your 16th birthday in 1961. My bad. I apologize. The damn immigration law changes so frequently, and I've been away from from it for a few years, and I sometimes mis-remember when various versions went into effect. Thank you for pointing that out.

No problem, although I note that the sources I have found all say 10 years total, and 5 years after the 14th birthday.

In any event, I can state that, in my experience, all US governmental entities will accept a state-issued certified "certificate of live birth" as legal proof of birth in the US.

Yep, but then the Birthers go with the "what did Hawaii regard as proof to get the "certificate of live birth" and claim that Hawaii would let you just self-certify--i.e., that Obama's grandparents went in and filled out a form claiming he was born at their house. It's a never-ending rabbit hole with them, kind of like how the 9-11 Truthers will say that there's no evidence that Mohamed Atta ever boarded Flight 11 because there's no film of him handing his boarding pass to the gate attendant. No evidence will ever satisfy either group.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

So basically the birthers have the birth certificate claim, which has been long debunked. It is in fact so easy to debunk that it should be a litmus test for breathing.

Then they have the requests for documents with are protected under medical privacy, FERPA, private documents of an organization or already out there for people that want to find them. Oh and there is the category of documents that don't exist.

Beyond that they have the ridiculous claim about Barack Obama really being named Barry, because he was called Barry. Again the answer painfully obvious...Barry is a nickname using the Bar sound from Barrack. It is an Americanization of one's name for the sake of allowing a little boy to fit it.

All these claims are easily shown to be crap, and so the fall back on their end game. The one "slam dunk" they have. In order to be a Natural Born Citizen you have to be born of two citizens in the United States...blah blah. The only problem is that it is complete crap. They base this off of the work of de Vattel when they should have been smarter and looked to Blackstone. British Common Law had a different idea of a natural citizen, which means that being born within the nation or the holdings of the nation is enough to be a natural citizen. Regardless of the nationality of your parents, unless they are some short of dignitary.

So why de Vattel? I have no damn clue, because as far as I can tell it was only referenced once in U.S. case law; the Dreed Scott case. It was cited as a justification for why slaves weren't citizens, and is not valid because it is part of bad case law.

As far as Berg goes...he is a 9/11 truther turned PUMA turned birther who got spanked on Nightline by a journalist from Hawaii.