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Roman Polanski arrested (discuss)...

Since when does having consensual sex prior to being raped affect the rape case?

It's worse than that. She was thirteen, and therefore not legally recognised as capable of consenting to sex. Therefore, the argument becomes "This rape should be considered less serious because the victim had been raped before." Which looks, to put it mildly, even less compelling.

Dave
 
to go back to the polanski case, in case this was not clear from my previous post, lostangeles, I think polanski should go in prison. But I am simply disagreeing on some point (was it a real rape or not ? My POV is (apparently) the same as Lowe above : we do not know, we can only say he was condemend for unlawful sex with a minor which is NAMED statuatory rape in that state, but is not per see the same as a rape, it is sex with a consenting but not legally allowed minor. We sadly have no way with the info given to say if there was a real rape or not, as with the info given it is a she-said, he-said situation. Now if there had been a medical examination, that would be something else).

ETA: And yes it make a huge difference for me (and as far as I can tell legally too) if a 13 year old willingly has sex with a 40 year old idiot, or the same 40 year old idiot rape the 13 year old. Sadly we have apparently no way to know which way it went. If polanski demonstrably had raped the girl then I say, throw the cell key out. But we cannot make such ad-hoc judgement without evidence.
 
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: we do not know, we can only say he was condemend for unlawful sex with a minor which is NAMED statuatory rape in that state, but is not per see the same as a rape, it is sex with a consenting but not legally allowed minor.

There was no consent.
 
You mean like all the times she said, "no?"
Contrasted with her willingly going with him for a second photo-shoot without anyone else - not least her mother - accompanying her, undressing for some of the photos, drinking the champagne, taking the qualude they shared, etc.
They exist, but they're not required to be given by the victims.
But they establish a standard that the opinions of the victim or their relatives should have a bearing on how the perpetrator is punished.
I read Applebaum's response to those who responded to her. She linked to the Smoking Gun's transcript of the grand jury testimony.

He raped her twice.
Technically, I would say not. Who counts every change of position as a separate sex act?
Still not seeing where she and Whoopi (and Information Analyst) are ok with this.
Sorry, did you miss the bit a couple of pages back where I said, "The bottom line, though, is that Polanski pled guilty to a specific charge, and he should receive an appropriate punishment for it"? Personally, I'd give him four years, but I guess for some people nothing short of hanging, drawing, and quartering will do.
Further, I know that with victims of abuse, they can continue that pattern of abuse with others. It's an explanation, not an excuse.
No, it's not, but "can" is the operative word in your first sentence there. It seems that a lot of people are more interested in punishing Polanski for what they think he "must" have done since, rather than the actual case in question.
Why are people trying to excuse his raping of a 13 year old girl by reminding us of him losing his family in the Holocaust and the loss of his wife and unborn child at the hands of some lunatics? How the **** does that wash.
I don't see anyone "excusing" him on those grounds, only people pointing out that you can't expect someone to come out of experiences like that as well-balanced as someone who didn't go through them.
 
Contrasted with her willingly going with him for a second photo-shoot without anyone else - not least her mother - accompanying her, undressing for some of the photos, drinking the champagne, taking the qualude they shared, etc.


She was asking for it?:confused: Saying "no" isn't no?
 
6. How to put this politely... from what I've read in Dan Savage's column (NSFW) over the years I would expect an anal rape that took place as described in the transcript at The Smoking Gun to leave detectable injuries that would have been documented by the police and presented at Polanski's trial as evidence of forcible rape. I'm not calling her a liar but if that exact sequence of events was presented in a sex scene in a work of fiction I think it would be seen as implausible. People's bits just don't work that way.
Something which I tried - for the sake of propriety - to skirt around earlier. I don't expect everyone here to admit to the level to which they're familiar with anal sex, but I also just don't buy it as described in the statement/interview.
 
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Aspervius, Kevin, at what age should a person be able to enter into a legal contract? At what age should they be allowed to vote? At what age should they be able to join the military?
On the other hand, at what age is a child legally responsible for a crime they commit? In the United States it seems it is between 6 and 12.
 
She was asking for it?:confused: Saying "no" isn't no?
How about you go hang around in a bad neighbourhood with a wad of money sticking out of your pocket. People will, at least, say you were foolish if and when someone grabs it off you. That doesn't stop the theif from being a thief, but their actions can't be entirely separated from yours.
 
As it says in that link, "very few jurisdictions use the actual term "statutory rape" in the language of statutes". Legally speaking, sex involving the voluntary participation of an underage person is only a subset of "rape" in a handful of jurisdictions and my view is that even in those cases the legal term is an inflammatory misnomer. Everywhere else it's something like "unlawful sexual intercourse", the crime Polanski pleaded guilty to.

As such, it's a cold, hard legal fact that sex with a willingly participating thirteen year old in California is not rape in the legal sense. It's unlawful sexual intercourse. (Of course if she was not a willing participant, as is likely but not proven beyond reasonable doubt, it would be rape).

Since I made it perfectly clear that sex with the girl in question was illegal, regardless of whether she participated voluntarily, you're pursuing a purely semantic argument based on a popular misnomer ("statutory rape") that has no basis in Californian law. The spin and distortion here is your insistence on using an emotive misnomer rather than the technically correct terms.

The legal definition of "statutory rape" under U.S. law is "sex between an adult and a minor below the age of consent."

Therefore, Polanski committed rape.

Your semantic gymnastics don't make you any less wrong on this point.
 
Actually, we can assume a couple of things...as he attempted to work out a plea agreement. He agreed to plead guilty to sex with a minor, face some sort of prison term (supposedly short) and deportion. His guilty pleas says he had "sex" with the minor...and that legally, because she cold not consent, it was a crime. We can also assume that while mutually agreed to by the State and Polanski, it was done so in order to avoid a trial. The trial likely would have been on the forcible rape, drugging, kidnapping, abuse of a minor. We can judge to some extent what Polanski thought of his chances in a criminal trial by his taking the deal. While we can not know how strong the State's actual case against him, we can judge that Polanski understood that going before a jury that has heard that he had an unsupervised 13 year old over for a hot-tub party would pretty well go South for him from there. Afterall, how could it not? By every standard I know, a 40 year old man entertaining a 13 year old, alone, at a hot tub part looks at best creepy (because it is), than when you add sex in, it is really ugly. He knew that if he was judged by a jury on the same charge that he plead to, the Judge would throw the book at him...years in jail. How could the judge not? He was a 40 year old man knowingly "entertaining" a 13 year old. It shocks the consceince. So he plead guilty, not because he was even close to innocent (he was not innocent) he plead to try and avoid real punishment for his actions and he fled to avoid responsibility.

My point is, you can get into the Whoopie issue that somehow statutory rape is not "rape rape" but ultimately, it seems to me it is meaningless. Even in a he said, she said situation where he alleges "consent" and she says she said "no" -- in other words, take the "statutory" element out of her ability to consent -- and you are left with a rich, powerful, 40 year old man and a 13 year old girl. Believe me, even in the permissive 70s, an LA county jury (not made up of Whoopie or Woody, but pipe-fitters, secretaries, and school teachers) would have found him guilty. He knew it.

And, don't assume that the State didn't persue it because they didn't have evidence, as is true with many a rape (statutory or otherwise), the State does seek to minimize the impact on the alleged victem. In short, one motivation for the State wasn't the weakness of their case but to keep the victim off the stand -- and, given her age, they were, IMO, right in doing so.

So, from the circumstances, you can pretty well be assured that it was "rape rape" if you want to try and make a meaningless distinction between that and a statutorilly illegal sex act...
 
How about you go hang around in a bad neighbourhood with a wad of money sticking out of your pocket. People will, at least, say you were foolish if and when someone grabs it off you. That doesn't stop the theif from being a thief, but their actions can't be entirely separated from yours.

I find it rather interesting that a 13 year old girl is expected to be a good judge of bad neighbourhoods or damgerous situations.
 

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