And here's the root of your frustration. There are lots of open minds here, but you aren't offering any new information. All your arguments have long been debunked and many of the posters here are simply tired of pointing out (yet again) that the so-called "inside-job evidence" is cherry-picked, taken out of context, misquoted, misinterpreted, contradictory, unrealistic, unphysical, insane or just plain wrong.
If you really want to see some very smart, educated and open minds at work, bring something substantively new, different (and realistic) to the table.
Metaphorically speaking, you are running around saying that it's "obvious" that the Earth is flat, and complaining that nobody's addressing your points and instead pointing you to the library.
Argue something that hasn't been done to death already or go away.
On the contrary, the thermal imagery of the debris piles DISPROVES any notion that incendiaries were in any way responsible, let alone present in the first place.
Oh, what atavism linked to is much more stupid than that. His video shows an infra-red view of one of the towers befor it collapses, and tries to make the case that since the OUTSIDE of the tower wasn't hot enough to weaken steel then somehow the temps inside couldn't have been either.
Yes, that really is the case the video tries to make!
This video also does the standard truther 2006 claims of Edna Cintron, neglecting to mention taht she jumped to her death because she copuldn't take the heat any more. Also claims the Windsor Tower in Madrid didn't collapse, even though the steel portion did in fact collapse completely, and various other long-debunked truther lies and misrepresentations.
Guy who made the video claims to be a scientist, of course he doesn't mention why no truther can get a paper published in a peer-reviwed science or engineering journal since all this science is on their side.
Whatever destroyed those massive structures so systematically must also have been present in the towers to such a degree that any proper, thorough, and unbiased, forensic analysis would have uncovered the necessay facts to know what actually occurred.
One forensic analysis has already occurred. As I said to someone else in another thread, download NCSTAR 1-3 and all its subreports. Pay particular attention to 1-3C. Please identify the structural components inventoried there that were affected by explosives. If you can do that, then you might have the beginning of an argument. But at the same time, understand why I'm sending you there: None of those components show anything other than the effects of mechanical strain. So, good luck establishing your thesis on the very steel recovered from the towers.
BTW, the NYPD's Crime Scene Unit and the FBI were separately and publicly quoted saying that they, too, had conducted forensic examinations of the debris. Feel free to FOIA them for their findings.
As it is, with the immediate disposal of the unexamined steel, and the media cover-up (see: Project Censored) there is still a very substantial body of damning evidence.
All evidence is documented– airplane parts were essential to the beginning investigation, but now they look for hair, fibers, glass particles, semen, ballistics. ...We ID every part...
"Law enforcement authorities survey the material for evidence. Only then is it released to a scrap processor under an existing long-term contract with the NYC Department of Sanitation to purchase and then recycle scrap metal."
Besides, in this case the empirical evidence is so overwhelming I would not even need such an analysis to be 100% certain that explosives were used here.
Like every other truther, I predict you will start to care after the explosives proposal is for the umpteenth time shown to be refuted. Every truther has migrated towards thermite to try and answer the rebuttals regarding explosive noises and lack of explosive components like timers, wiring, etc. Thermite also fails, but it appears as though you haven't even gotten that far with your conspiracy theorizing. You must be new to this. The thermite excuse was used to try to explain away everything we've been pointing out what, back in 2006?
I have been. I as well as others here have demonstrated over and over that each and every one of these "facts" that conspiracy peddlers present are misinterpretations, misunderstandings, or outright distortions.
The sounds? A Massive roar for 15 seconds..Thousands of explosions blurring into one prolonged event.
Read the Oral Histories for goddness sakes/// IT WAS VERY LOUD!!!! -
Listen to the audio on closeup vids.
Glass was shattered for hundreds of feet, everything was shattered,. the towers completely blown apart! The sound and later energy was tremendous - looks what remained of the buildings!
And yet, Winter Garden - a building with a huge glass exterior - only suffered breaks where impacted by debris. Don't get me wrong, there was extensive damage, but not total. And an explosion would've shattered all that glass. As well as all the glass in the buildings immediately north of Tower 1; take for example the Verizon building. Does it look to you like all the glass in this picture was shattered?
And as I pointed out, cruise Google Scholar and compare barotraumatic injuries from 9/11 with that of the Madrid or London events. Or the Israeli bus bombing events. The injuries are consistent with either being trapped or by being hit with debris, but what stands out is the utter lack of total ear drum ruptures (there are scads of reports of single ear ruptures from firefighters trapped inside the buildings, but no dual ruptures), as well as barotraumatic injuries to victim's lungs. Those composed the entirety of victims of the Israel, Spain, and UK events, but were lacking to the point of almost being completely absent at the WTC.
The loud roar was utterly consistent with the building falling, but not with explosives.
WTC7 was well over 300 feet away from the North Tower and it's collapse is blamed on damage created by N Tower's collapse (and fires having burned uncontrollably in offices for 7hrs)
1- Deputy OEM Commissioner ordered the complete evacuation of WTC 7 at 9:44 AM INCLUDING the 23rd flr. OEM Center.
2- Jennings arrives at the 23rd floor to an abandoned OEM center. Makea a few calls and then is told to evacuate.
3- I have yet to find a time as to when he arrived at the 23rd floor. But lets assume it took at least 5 minutes to evacuate the OEM center at 9:44. We are now looking at about 10 minutes to 10. 9:50AM
4- So Lets say Jennings arrived EXACTLY 5 minutes after OEM evacuated. That puts us at 9:55.
6- Jenning makes a few calls and is told to evacuate. approx.1-2 Minutes. That puts us at 9:57
7- Jennings then heads to the elevator and is waiting, 9:59AM WTC2 collapses the lights flicker inside WTC-7
8- Jennings was waiting for an unspecified amount of time, learned that the elevator did not work so headed for the staircase.
9- When Jennings got down to the 6th floor it was 10:28am. WTC1 collapsed. Jennings and the gentleman he was with were stuck.
So, although we don't have a conclusive time as to how long Jennings was waiting for the elevator or how long it took him to get down the stairs...the fact is. Jennings explosions he heard were WTC2 collapsing.
You can find the times in the NIST report: Before you crap on the NIST report. This is the version Mr. Jennings GAVE!
Even IF Jennings remembered anything different from when he did his counltess interviews and his testimony to NIST...he claims it was AFTER he reached the empty OEM, and AFTER he made a couple phone calls. This time line puts him right at the collapse time of WTC2. explaining the explosions he heard.
i wish instead of posting meaningless statements that pretend to say something but dont, that if you actually have something interesting to say about Freshkills that you simply say it! Please try to be specific it is the hallmark of clarity.
I have posted and referenced all the proof anyone needs; some of the facts of the case. We don't really need other reference or authority beyond a good working knowledge of the facts of these well documented events (i.e live news, photos, videos and aftermath; the facts of what occurred.)
You are an expert 'debunker' I guess "TruthersLie" but that you dont know your subject very well comes across in your replies or you would be much more effective at answering such direct points and questions as the ones I have posed here. That you closed your mind and lost all objectivity is obvious.
Way to address those points and facts! (not a one dude!) No need to attack me personally. That only indicates (clearly every intelligent one else) that you find these arguments frustrating and threatening.
Why is it Im not threatened by debunkers in the slightest but 'debunkers' are so angry at these facts and those who would "be so foolish" as to suggest what is obvious? -Im not even a truther and u'r attacking me.
What i am is a frustrated debunker looking for help from you but with weak non-arguments like that I might as well go back and speak to people with something interesting to say, like the Mexicans and Asians in my ESL classes
Right. Find ANY explosive that makes a massive roar. I have provided you with video of EXPLOSIVES. They don't make a ROAR. The ROAR was the collapse of 2 110 story tall buildings. It is called a collapse, not an explosion.
It is ironic that you lecture me on reading comprehension and then reply with something that does not even address the implications of my statement accurately. Which is that, it was thousands of explosions going off over a 15 second period on 9/11 created an extended, very loud, roar, (and extremely powerful lateral energies that broke windows in buildings hundreds of feet away.) That these explosions did not break other windows you may mention (as you did) does not address what did occur. And that is the issue at hand.
Even at a Chinese New Year's celebration the effects of thousands of firecrackers, which are stringed and grouped, provide a similar effect on a tiny scale
Please provide ANY PROOF that thousands of explosives would blur into one prolonged event.
well, if you have many thousands of charges and you set them off over an extended period of time it is only logical to conclude that the noises would blend into one another and continue for the designated time.
'datamining'? oh okay -This is how you are able to respond; weakly.
Im sharing facts. Not with you obviously, otherwise you would or could have addressed even one and said 'No, this explains all that energy' or whatever, but you do not bc you cannot. (nothing against you my friend just your argument)
It is ironic that you lecture me on reading comprehension and then reply with something that does not even address the implications of my statement accurately. Which is that, it was thousands of explosions going off over a 15 second period on 9/11 created an extended, very loud, roar, (and extremely powerful lateral energies that broke windows in buildings hundreds of feet away.) That these explosions did not break other windows you may mention (as you did) does not address what did occur. And that is the issue at hand.
Even at a Chinese New Year's celebration the effects of thousands of firecrackers, which are stringed and grouped, provide a similar effect on a tiny scale
But those selfsame strings of fireworks do not have the same explosive power as if you combined all the gunpowder in a string and set it off in a single detonation.
You're trying to claim that the "roar" was due to many many tiny explosions over a relatively long period of time, which would indeed avoid the blast effects pointed out by ElMondoHummus and others. Unfortunately for your argument, it would also prevent the explosives from damaging the structure.
Go back and read the HIGHLIGHTED, or BOLDED portions of what I quote for you. Then go and use a dictionary.
There was no symmetrical fall. There was NO "textbook" implosion. There is no "empirical proof" of demolitions. You really should look them up.
i wish instead of posting meaningless statements that pretend to say something but dont, that if you actually have something interesting to say about Freshkills that you simply say it! Please try to be specific it is the hallmark of clarity.
no no twoofie. If you want to learn, you need to go and LOOK IT UP. If I spoon feed it to you, you will never learn it. You will just say that I am wrong. so go and LOOK UP FRESH KILLS landfill, and read about how the steel was examined. You obviously haven't.
I have posted and referenced all the proof anyone needs; some of the facts of the case.
You have posted OPINION. Please find me JUST ONE peer reviewed structural engineering report from ANYONE in ANY language which says that explosives were used. JUST ONE. I'll take it in chinese, vietnames, arabic, russian, spanish, or any other language you want to present.
There aren't ANY.
We don't really need other reference or authority beyond a good working knowledge of the facts of these well documented events (i.e live news, photos, videos and aftermath; the facts of what occurred.)
But you don't have good working knowledge of the facts. LOOK UP what explosives do and sound like.
I posted for you at least 3 different explosions videos. What do you HEAR? huh?
1000 lbs of explosives at 2 kilometers away is so loud they JUMP and are startled.
Explosives make a LOUD SHARP explosion. Yet you are talking about THOUSANDS of explosions... and no one JUMPS in any video. Why is that? because there were no explosions.
You are an expert 'debunker' I guess "TruthersLie" but that you dont know your subject very well comes across in your replies or you would be much more effective at answering such direct points and questions as the ones I have posed here.
An expert? Not really. I have done and do know how to do REAL research (I teach reserach methods to college studuents). You need to learn how to do REAL research twoof.
That you closed your mind and lost all objectivity is obvious.
Handwave noted.
I have, and do DETEST GWB. That is the reason I am an Expat American working and living abroad. I detest the republicans and Neo cons. I would absolutely LOVE it if the US government did it. I'd be dancing with joy. But they haven't. The research shows they didn't do it. 5 minutes of research on any TRUTHER claim shows the TRUTHERSLIE.
Way to address those points and facts! (not a one dude!) No need to attack me personally. That only indicates (clearly every intelligent one else) that you find these arguments frustrating and threatening.
Why is it Im not threatened by debunkers in the slightest but 'debunkers' are so angry at these facts and those who would "be so foolish" as to suggest what is obvious? -Im not even a truther and u'r attacking me.
You most definately are a "truther." All we need to do sock is just examine your bs claims.
it would help if you presented any FACTS.
What i am is a frustrated debunker looking for help from you but with weak non-arguments like that I might as well go back and speak to people with something interesting to say, like the Mexicans and Asians in my ESL classes
YOu have been pointed to the appropriate resources and information REPEATEDLY. Yet you keep repeating the same ********. Why is that?
It is ironic that you lecture me on reading comprehension and then reply with something that does not even address the implications of my statement accurately. Which is that, it was thousands of explosions going off over a 15 second period on 9/11 created an extended, very loud, roar, (and extremely powerful lateral energies that broke windows in buildings hundreds of feet away.)
READING FOR COMPREHENSION is your friend. You really do need to try it more. Please provide ANY PROOF that "thousands of explosion going off" would create a ROAR and not have individual distinct explosions.
Note that 30 kilos of explosives necessary to demolish a bridge (30 kilos) are so loud the people watching the bridge demolishment JUMP with the LOUD and DISTINCT CRACK. Yet there is NO reaction like that from anyone who watched the towers collapse. Amazing isn't it?
in 1993 when terrorists detonated a bomb in the basement of the towers (over 500 kilos) it destroyed several levels of the concrete but DIDN'T cut a single BEAM. 500 kilos of explosives. They were HEARD throughout the complex by EVERYONE. Yet you are claiming that there were thousand of explosions to cut beams but NO ONE HEARD IT? That is AMAZING.
look up cd explosions. They do not ROAR, they are sharp, distinct sounds.
That these explosions did not break other windows you may mention (as you did) does not address what did occur. And that is the issue at hand.
No twoof, it most definately does address the issue at hand. When you do CD, you have to do several things which include
1. expose the steel beam
2. weaken the steel beam
3. drill holes in the concrete to set explosives
4. set explosives
5. have miles of wires going to detonators
if you don't do that it doesn't cut the steel. Since no one says they had folks doing that in the towers, you need to have straight explosives. And we saw in 1993 that you would need over 500kilos per column. The airpressure from those types of explosions would SHATTER ALL OF THE GLASS FOR MILES. Not some of it. Not random windows hit by debris. It would shatter the glass all over manhattan. Not to mention that conctrete and steel shrapnel would be thrown throughout manhattan.
With 500 kilos of TNT, at over 2 kilometers themythbusters crew could hear the steel shrapnel. Where are the sounds of the shrapnel on any of the videos?
Even at a Chinese New Year's celebration the effects of thousands of firecrackers, which are stringed and grouped, provide a similar effect on a tiny scale
And what do the sound like? Crack crack crack, and sometimes faster, but still crack crack crack.
'datamining'? oh okay -This is how you are able to respond; weakly.
Im sharing facts. Not with you obviously, otherwise you would or could have addressed even one and said 'No, this explains all that energy' or whatever, but you do not bc you cannot. (nothing against you my friend just your argument)
you really do need to go and READ The full transcripts in the oral histories. of the 118 firefighters you twoofs love to datamine. NONE heard CD explosions. Go and READ the full transcripts.
Try to actually go and read the FULL and COMPLETE statements, don't just go to twoof pages and copy and paste them.
Glass was shattered for hundreds of feet, everything was shattered,. the towers completely blown apart! The sound and later energy was tremendous - looks what remained of the buildings!
No it wasn't. Glass was broken by debris falling from the towers. If it was CD explosives, it would have shattered glass for miles.
WTC7 was well over 300 feet away from the North Tower and it's collapse is blamed on damage created by N Tower's collapse (and fires having burned uncontrollably in offices for 7hrs)
Ah yes, the datamined quotes from barry jennings. It is amazing how you need to improve your READING COMPREHENSION.
What does Barry Jennings say about you twoofs? Oh he disagrees with twoofs.
A much better analysis of Barry Jennings is by AlienEntity
Thermite is done in seconds or minutes.
Building contents burned for months. You ask easy questions and have big delusions.
Office stuff. There were 220 floors of junk, 220 acres of office stuff burning for months. Plus floors below level.
I wonder how long I could keep a fire burning with 220 acres of houses dumped on two acres? Gee; I keep my wood stove burning all winter, months, with only two cords of wood, a cord is very small compared to 220 floors of offices filled with tons of junk.
yeah except that the towers were not "houses" and the fires were very high up in the towers -Dont forget the (overly 'redundant') cores and the stairwells people used to flee shared the same space. The only barrier separating them was sheetrock, and these "raging infernos" lasted 56 and 102 minutes, were blown widely outside their footprints, then burned underground for 99 days, is your story.
Have you been in an office? It is not a 110 story wooden house with a massive steel block over it, the whole thing was a massive steel block that got thicker as it went lower down. The core and perimeter columns were tapered.
The fire would not go out, remember? aww man..heheh, you're just ignoring a ton of evidence. sorry.. forget it. it is not for everyone I guess.
To me it is almost incomprehensible how every human being with an IQ above room temperature cannot clearly grasp (from simple common sense) that these must have been explosive events. It shows the power of suggestion, nationalism and incredulity. Bc they cannot begin to imagine how such a thing could even be accomplished and almost logically, that there would be no reason to even do such a thing.
The reason of course was, TWO WARS WE GOT RIGHT INTO! CONTINUAL PERPETUAL WAR! No different than Vietnam; Islam terror is the latest bogeyman -easy to demonize bc they dont speak English, are a different culture etc (like Vietnam) These "hajis, ragheaded sandng'rs" etc)
All kinds of PERFECTLY innocent people, slaughtered, punished, and way too many tortured to death. This means nothing to you sit at home pontificating and it was not your mom or daughter. Just beyond disgraceful! just as Vietnam was!
Go back and read the HIGHLIGHTED, or BOLDED portions of what I quote for you. Then go and use a dictionary.
There was no symmetrical fall. There was NO "textbook" implosion. There is no "empirical proof" of demolitions. You really should look them up.
no no twoofie. If you want to learn, you need to go and LOOK IT UP. If I spoon feed it to you, you will never learn it. You will just say that I am wrong. so go and LOOK UP FRESH KILLS landfill, and read about how the steel was examined. You obviously haven't.
You have posted OPINION. Please find me JUST ONE peer reviewed structural engineering report from ANYONE in ANY language which says that explosives were used. JUST ONE. I'll take it in chinese, vietnames, arabic, russian, spanish, or any other language you want to present.
There aren't ANY.
But you don't have good working knowledge of the facts. LOOK UP what explosives do and sound like.
I posted for you at least 3 different explosions videos. What do you HEAR? huh?
1000 lbs of explosives at 2 kilometers away is so loud they JUMP and are startled.
Explosives make a LOUD SHARP explosion. Yet you are talking about THOUSANDS of explosions... and no one JUMPS in any video. Why is that? because there were no explosions.
An expert? Not really. I have done and do know how to do REAL research (I teach reserach methods to college studuents). You need to learn how to do REAL research twoof.
Handwave noted.
I have, and do DETEST GWB. That is the reason I am an Expat American working and living abroad. I detest the republicans and Neo cons. I would absolutely LOVE it if the US government did it. I'd be dancing with joy. But they haven't. The research shows they didn't do it. 5 minutes of research on any TRUTHER claim shows the TRUTHERSLIE.
Project much?
You most definately are a "truther." All we need to do sock is just examine your bs claims.
it would help if you presented any FACTS.
YOu have been pointed to the appropriate resources and information REPEATEDLY. Yet you keep repeating the same ********. Why is that?
READING FOR COMPREHENSION is your friend. You really do need to try it more. Please provide ANY PROOF that "thousands of explosion going off" would create a ROAR and not have individual distinct explosions.
Note that 30 kilos of explosives necessary to demolish a bridge (30 kilos) are so loud the people watching the bridge demolishment JUMP with the LOUD and DISTINCT CRACK. Yet there is NO reaction like that from anyone who watched the towers collapse. Amazing isn't it?
in 1993 when terrorists detonated a bomb in the basement of the towers (over 500 kilos) it destroyed several levels of the concrete but DIDN'T cut a single BEAM. 500 kilos of explosives. They were HEARD throughout the complex by EVERYONE. Yet you are claiming that there were thousand of explosions to cut beams but NO ONE HEARD IT? That is AMAZING.
look up cd explosions. They do not ROAR, they are sharp, distinct sounds.
No twoof, it most definately does address the issue at hand. When you do CD, you have to do several things which include
1. expose the steel beam
2. weaken the steel beam
3. drill holes in the concrete to set explosives
4. set explosives
5. have miles of wires going to detonators
if you don't do that it doesn't cut the steel. Since no one says they had folks doing that in the towers, you need to have straight explosives. And we saw in 1993 that you would need over 500kilos per column. The airpressure from those types of explosions would SHATTER ALL OF THE GLASS FOR MILES. Not some of it. Not random windows hit by debris. It would shatter the glass all over manhattan. Not to mention that conctrete and steel shrapnel would be thrown throughout manhattan.
With 500 kilos of TNT, at over 2 kilometers themythbusters crew could hear the steel shrapnel. Where are the sounds of the shrapnel on any of the videos?
And what do the sound like? Crack crack crack, and sometimes faster, but still crack crack crack.
you really do need to go and READ The full transcripts in the oral histories. of the 118 firefighters you twoofs love to datamine. NONE heard CD explosions. Go and READ the full transcripts.
Try to actually go and read the FULL and COMPLETE statements, don't just go to twoof pages and copy and paste them.
Haha. The sound of the collapses was the sound of the explosives going off? I love it. It's just so precious, in that child-like ignorance sort of way...
By the way, atavisms, most truthers take the opposite approach (sound of collapse obscures sound of explosives). You know that, right? Can you explain why they are wrong?
or like the other threads you have run from? Welcome to ignore. You are in high company with bill smith and 9/11 investigator.
ETA: I also love how the ESL student reads and replies to my whole post in under 2 minutes. Way to go sock. Thank you for showing that you haven't bothered and can't be bothered to learn.
Well thank you for the response, as incoherent as it is....
That quote of a 911 researcher was from Dr Steven Jones.
Jones believes that nano-thermite was utilized in the destruction of the WTC buildings, something that I get the impression you agree with...obviously you disagree with Dr Jones, the guy who Dylan Avery says has come the closest to proving that nano-thermite was used in a CD on what the aftermath of a building that was taken down of that fashion.
Do you mind explaining why you disagree with Dr Jones on his assessment of the aftermath of the WTC collapses?
Will I have to post 20 more times asking you to answer this question as well?
That last question isn't so important for you to answer, focus on your disagreement with Dr Jones.
a lot of snappy impatient people on this board! (pardon if I missed a reply of yours)
I do not disagree with, or even have the wherewithal to, or care really, in terms of my own certainty on the matter, about Jones. I think he is great for what he is doing but if you are going to distill one point out of my initial post it should be that no authority required here.
Just as it is the preponderance of reason that directs defines the laws of the land. And just as lay people are given the highest seat. The power to even ignore the law and supersede it (jury nullification) is all done through one thing only; the preponderance of reason. That is what we have to do with this subject.
Other cases are such Im sure where the use of explosives could not be determined without highly technical scientific analysis. The events in lower Manhattan 9/11/01 are not such a case.
sorry I missed this earlier, I have to start going in order.
yes sir, I see many many problems with it. For years that was all I saw. I have no clue how it was done. The whole seems seems incredibly unlikely, dont know how NORAD works, the NRO, war games, military explosives, etc, etc. These are things that could keep any intelligent person dismissive of the possibility forever.
What I do know are the well established facts of 9/11 and it's aftermath, structural steel, the nature of tall buildings, fire, & gravity.
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