Derren Brown is no different than Uri Gellar.

[Folly]

Posts 630 and 633 should answer your question.

Well, along with page 17, I think so, yes. Thanks.

 

[microdot]

Well, along with page 17, I think so, yes. Thanks.

You're welcome

 

[Garrette]

I had to go back a little to see how bad I had taken your comment out of context. So my apologies for that.

Gladly accepted. I've made that mistake, and many others, more than once.

I thought I had made a damn good point (and I would have if you had been arguing something else).

That usually happens to me in the science forum when I think I understand the topic but obviously don't...

Of course in re-reading some posts I noticed how you, fredriks and microdot engaged in a 3 page NLP derail. Thanks for that.

Guilty as charged. I only ask that my sentencing be mitigated by the fact that my participation spanned only a couple of the last pages of a very long thread.

Anyway, I thought this video was appropriate:

I'll have to watch later; can't right now.

If you watch, you'll notice that the host straight up asks Derren (a few times) how he does his tricks. Knowing damn well a magician can't do that, he asks anyway. That is the problem. People are no longer satisfied with the explanation, "It's magic." They must have "real" explanations.

I think you've hit on something I've gnawed at around the edges.

I'm not sure of the reason, but I think the general feeling towards magic has drifted away from being satisfied with the magic itself as the explanation. (I'm speaking very unscientifically and in broad strokes; I am quite familiar with the fact that quite a number of magicians make comfortable or even extravagant livings with magic explained as magic, and I am happy to be shown I'm speaking bollocks. For now, though, let's leave it that I'm offering my own observations.)

Derren's first cold reading attempt flops horribly, but you'll notice after the rebound how he goes on to explain himself by saying it was "psychological techniques" mixed with "showmanship." The "psychological technique" in question is cold reading. As far as psychology in his shows, that's it.

Keep asking him how he does what he does and you'll get the same answers... (hint: the answer ALWAYS includes "magic")

Ayup.

 

[Cainkane1]

I'm surprised she did as well as she did. My cousin was never actually raped but her father improperly touched from age younger than five until sometimes when she was in highschool. She had three failed marriages because she hated being intimate with a man for obvious reasons. If even a tenth of what this lady says about her father is true I'm surprised shes still sane.

 

[StanBearclaw]

I'm surprised she did as well as she did. My cousin was never actually raped but her father improperly touched from age younger than five until sometimes when she was in highschool. She had three failed marriages because she hated being intimate with a man for obvious reasons. If even a tenth of what this lady says about her father is true I'm surprised shes still sane.

Even I can't blame Derren Brown for any of this happening.

 

[JFrankA]

I'm surprised she did as well as she did. My cousin was never actually raped but her father improperly touched from age younger than five until sometimes when she was in highschool. She had three failed marriages because she hated being intimate with a man for obvious reasons. If even a tenth of what this lady says about her father is true I'm surprised shes still sane.

Err....uh...Sorry, Cainkane, I don't know why you posted this......


....did I miss a page of this thread....?

 

[Azrael 5]

O/T
Just watching 3rd Episode of Events love Derren's magician in-jokes.

 

[Matthew Best]

No, he doesn't.

He uses traditional magic tricks wrapped up in a psychology presentation.

That is he uses stage assistants, sleight of hand, props, gimmicks etc.. Just like other magicians.

When he does what he calls "mental forcings", do they not count as psychological tricks? That's when he gets people to pick cards out of an imaginary pack by subtly influencing them using words, gestures, etc.

 

[LandR]

When he does what he calls "mental forcings", do they not count as psychological tricks? That's when he gets people to pick cards out of an imaginary pack by subtly influencing them using words, gestures, etc.

He isn't subtly influencing them. That wouldn't work 100% of the time. A magician needs things to work 100% of the time. If he wants someone to pick a card then you can be guaranteed that the 'trick' will work regardless of whatever card that person chooses.

No magician is using body language, body reading, subtle gestures to influence people, touching them in a certain way to make them think of a certain thing etc etc.

They are just tricks. Well presented and flawlessly executed.. tricks.

 

[StanBearclaw]

When he does what he calls "mental forcings", do they not count as psychological tricks? That's when he gets people to pick cards out of an imaginary pack by subtly influencing them using words, gestures, etc.

No dude, it's just a trick.

But thank you for helping to prove my point.

 

[LandR]

No dude, it's just a trick.

But thank you for helping to prove my point.

That's the thing, this is a board for skeptics and critical thinkers so I assume most posters are intelligent rational people but Derren is so good at what he does he can fool the smart people

You have to give him credit for that, his presentation and execution is flawless even if I personally don't agree with his methods and the way he markets himself.

 

[Matthew Best]

No dude, it's just a trick.

But thank you for helping to prove my point.

Well, I mentioned that because in his video of a few years ago, "Devil's Picturebook", he shows exactly how he does a great many of his magic tricks, almost exclusively card tricks. At the end of the video he explains that he is moving away from doing card magic into doing "mentalism" (for want of a better word) and demonstrates a couple of those tricks, and then explains them in the manner which I alluded to.

Are you saying that this explanation - in a video whose very purpose was to explain his tricks - was itself deceptive?

 

[StanBearclaw]

That's the thing, this is a board for skeptics and critical thinkers so I assume most posters are intelligent rational people but Derren is so good at what he does he can fool the smart people

You have to give him credit for that, his presentation and execution is flawless even if I personally don't agree with his methods and the way he markets himself.

No doubt. If he weren't so good, there would be no problem!

 

[Matthew Best]

Well, I have to say if he tried the same tricks he demonstrates in that video now, they would definitely not work, because we're all much more aware of the sort of supposedly subconscious mental forcing he's talking about.

 

[StanBearclaw]

Well, I mentioned that because in his video of a few years ago, "Devil's Picturebook", he shows exactly how he does a great many of his magic tricks, almost exclusively card tricks. At the end of the video he explains that he is moving away from doing card magic into doing "mentalism" (for want of a better word) and demonstrates a couple of those tricks, and then explains them in the manner which I alluded to.

Are you saying that this explanation - in a video whose very purpose was to explain his tricks - was itself deceptive?

I don't know exactly what trick he's doing, but to paraphrase Randi: If he's using super-psychological wonder powers, he's doing it the hard way.

I don't want to post the link, but there is an explanation on YouTube that sounds like what you're describing. "invisible deck"

 

[LandR]

Anyone watching tonights show about remote viewing ?

I didn't see it but from an MSN conversation:

"He had a picture he drew in a museum, apparently he did a show with various tricks then unveiled the picture which matched up hopefully to what people drew at home. He says he did by planting the image of concentric circles in various newspapers which influenced people to be thinking of concentric circles and that's what they would draw when they watched the program tonight."

The point of the episode was to apparently show how Derren can do remote viewing without being psychic and he has done it by influencing people subliminally with newspapers - so he says, of course.

Can anyone who did see it confirm this ?

That's as ridiculous as his lottery explanation and loads of people bought that.

I'm hoping I have been given inaccurate information.

 

[Matthew Best]

That's a cool trick, but in the trick I'm remembering he doesn't use a pack of cards.

 

[LandR]

Well, I mentioned that because in his video of a few years ago, "Devil's Picturebook", he shows exactly how he does a great many of his magic tricks, almost exclusively card tricks. At the end of the video he explains that he is moving away from doing card magic into doing "mentalism" (for want of a better word) and demonstrates a couple of those tricks, and then explains them in the manner which I alluded to.

Are you saying that this explanation - in a video whose very purpose was to explain his tricks - was itself deceptive?

Mentalism is just a branch of magic that uses psychology and mind-reading as the presentation to the tricks. The tricks are largely the same, and require the same skill-set, it's just the showmanship and presentation that change.

 

[LandR]

Well, I have to say if he tried the same tricks he demonstrates in that video now, they would definitely not work, because we're all much more aware of the sort of supposedly subconscious mental forcing he's talking about.

People would still be fooled by the tricks, because they are just tricks. They don't need you to fall for it, if the magician is talented enough and has a good enough sleight of hand, gimmick, prop etc then the trick will work.

A lot of the tricks Derren performs aren't even new tricks, he has just brought them up-to-date with a modern, very slick, presentation

 

[Matthew Best]

You'd have to see the video to know what I mean.